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It's been a while since I've hung around wargaming forums - it tends to have a bad effect on my wallet. Certainly last time I did the number of people attempting Titan builds was a fraction of what it is currently. Here though there are several threads and some superb examples. But that led me to thinking about Titans and their role in warfare. (Ok, 40k not exactly the best place to look at things rationally but still)

Titans to me are the equivalent of WWII battleships. Which became obsolete with the increased proliferation and staying power of aircraft. Air power has always been in the 40k universe but it is much easier to show that in game terms now. Never mind the effect an orbital strike would have on one (Assuming the battle in space has been won). So where do titans fit into things? Aside from a core for a new hive to build itself around? (oooh, new idea for scenery)

Frenchie

Well they do have Void Shields, which our battleships don't have.

In the BL books they are capable of withstanding almost any bombardment that can be thrown at them unless it actually destroys the land the titan is standing on.

Rayvon wrote:In the BL books they are capable of withstanding almost any bombardment that can be thrown at them unless it actually destroys the land the titan is standing on.

Must be the books where Space Marines are 10 ft tall.

Vulnerability to air strikes didn't kill battleships. The fact that carrier-borne aircraft can strike targets much further away without giving away the fleet's position did.

However, I liked the naval analogy. Titans operate in maniples similar to today's naval task forces, with Reavers and Warhounds providing support and battlefield awareness for the larger Warlords and Imperators.

To me Titans are less representative of battleships than they are of the mega tanks of the Germans at the end of the war - the Maus etc.

Pile on the maximum number of guns and pad out the armour, and ignore that in order to make them work you need to strengthen all the roads and bridges.

In one of Forge World's books (Taros Campaign) the Tau solution to Warhound titans was to mount some industrial-strength railguns on a plane. As soon as it took down one of them the others were withdrawn.
But anyway... I'd say they classify as a superweapon, with all the advantages and disadvantages.

Titans will never become obsolete from Apoc games. They are massive bullet-magnets that distract les-experienced players and cause anxiety and re-distribution of heavy units in experienced players.

Battleships eh...
Honestly the more i look at it the more titans looks like a battlemechs, the size certainly seems right.

Titans work in 40k because they (specifically the Imperial and Ork ones) "cheat" by actually using a better tech base/more psychic mumbo jumbo to be a superior choice to a large tank.

In the case of the Imperium, ttians use the sorts of Dark Age of Technology equipment otherwise reserved for spacecraft so are simply out and out better then the tanks and planes they share a battlefield with (thereby avoiding the normal scifi mech problem that a tank from the same tech base would always be a better choice then a giant robot if realism is applied)

For orks of course they're big idols of gork and mork and make extra orky psychic juice which makes them better (or in older versions of the fluff more psychic juice from big ork mobs in a big Waagh! unlocks more and better tech from the minds of the meks who then go on to make them, hence only appearing in the largest of ork armies).


For Eldar who knows, but it might just be nearly the same what with Eldar titans having their own infinity circuit so being a combination of what makes Wraithlords awesome, but multiplied over multiple dead and living Eldar souls.

Jack

I guess, in one sense, it's the same as a Space Marine's whole doctrine; scare the pants off your opponent. You see a few tanks rolling down a hill towards you, sure, you're scared, but it's manageable fear. You see a giant killer-robot strolling towards you, crushing fortifications and unleashing superweapons while their enhanced shielding soaks up fire like it's nothing. I know I'd certainly soil my underwear and run screaming into the night!

I can see them being from a time when size and strength meant everything. The Imperium was growing, taking over new worlds, and had to reinforce this message that the Imperium is strong, towering over lesser enemies, "so join us, okay?" Of course, things went to hell and back with the Horus Heresy, and that size and strength became more than just a weapon to be used against a foe, it became a reminder that the Imperium was once great and united, that their strength still remains no matter how fractured they may be.

I've been a fan of the the Lost Fleet series of books for a while. Warfare in that has gone on for so long that any attempts at tactics and innovation have disappeared because all those who had such skill have died in the conflict. The current generation of forces are so weary and yet so bitter (with such short expected life spans) that battles are usually just a case of each side charges with no thought other than killing each other for reasons that have long since been forgotten. All anyone knows is the other side started it. Their tech and how they construct it reflects that.

40k and Titans reminds me of that. Will it ever change? Would you want it to? 20 years from now are we still going to be grinding out the same figures with the same names in the same battles?

Frenchie

Well I think it will be a while before my LGS will do an apoc game with 6th ed rules. But I personal do not think they are dead either. I heard guys talking about the structure points on the titan. Each structure point, has 3 hull points, so when you glance the structure point twice lets say, then get a penetrating hit. It will only kill 1 structure point, the glances dont carry over to the next structure point. So it would smart to take something like a Titan.

I got into the Lost Fleet series on audiobook recently, and your analogy works well, with the reasons for war forgotten, they have just gone on and on, and the tech has suffered as a result.

marielle wrote:To me Titans are less representative of battleships than they are of the mega tanks of the Germans at the end of the war - the Maus etc.

Pile on the maximum number of guns and pad out the armour, and ignore that in order to make them work you need to strengthen all the roads and bridges.

Given that typical hive buildings are AV12 or more, I dont' think its out of the question that their roads and bridges can handle a bit more tonnage than our modern ones can.

Shield technology is what makes Titans feasable. That and Air technology in the modern world is the most powerful weapons system right now. Once the Naval Railgun becomes viable we will probably see some hybrid vessels start appearing. Carriers that also have a compliment of railguns for ship to ship combat.

Direct fire weapons will also always be preferred if they are equal to something that isn't direct fire(as in fire and forget) because you arn't relying on something that can get shot down on the way to the target. The Railgun gives the destructive power, precision, and range of a missile combined with the projectile being uncounterable(you can't shoot down a railgun slug)

Air power will probably decline in its usefulness within the next century. It won't be the End all Be All weapon it has been since WW2.

Can anyone tell me more about this "lost Fleet" series? Is there a website i can download the audio books, they sound interesting.

Grey Templar wrote:Shield technology is what makes Titans feasable. That and Air technology in the modern world is the most powerful weapons system right now.

Once the Naval Railgun comes back we will probably see some hybrid vessels start appearing. Carriers that also have a compliment of railguns for ship to ship combat.


Direct fire weapons will also always be preferred if they are equal to something that isn't direct fire(as in fire and forget) because you arn't relying on something that can get shot down on the way to the target. The Railgun gives the destructive power, precision, and range of a missile combined with the projectile being uncounterable(you can't shoot down a railgun slug)

Air power will probably decline in its usefulness within the next century. It won't be the End all Be All weapon it has been since WW2.

Aren't the Americans already playing around with Railguns? Sure I read an article talking about it recently. Nothing concrete yet, and I imagine they're not too worried until the Chinese work out their carrier capability but interesting nonetheless. What is also interesting is the Chinese developed counter to carrier battlefleets....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DF-21D#DF-21D_.28CSS-5_Mod-4.29_Anti-ship_ballistic_missile

J99Pwrangler wrote:Can anyone tell me more about this "lost Fleet" series? Is there a website i can download the audio books, they sound interesting.

One bookseller at your service.....

The Lost Fleet is a series of novels set in the future but of our own planet. There are often references to the Earth of old in it. It is a future in which mankind has spread out and colonised other planets but, as has often happened in history, factions split and the main factions of the galaxy we know are at war. It is a conflict which has raged for decades leading to a short life span amongst the crew and marines of the fleet. It has also led to a demise in technology and tactical innovation.

In the midst of the conflict an escape pod is rescued carrying a 100 year old survivor from the start of the conflict. He was actually the captain of a successful rear guard action which gave him heroic stature over the years since the event, during which he was assumed dead. The survivor, Jack Geary, being a survivor from an era when being a fleet officer meant all the training and tactics which that gathers brings all that knowledge with him to the table and events go from there.

It's written by an ex US naval officer and you can tell it. The thought that goes into how a space fleet would manoeuvre; the resources needed; the crew and morale; high command and politicians......It is well worth a read. It's not Peter F. Hamilton but enjoyable and well thought out.

Definitely worth investigating.

It also has ships harvesting and launching asteroids at static targets......love to to see the crash dummy test of a titan standing up to one of those from orbit. :p

Frenchie

Frenchie wrote:Aren't the Americans already playing around with Railguns? Sure I read an article talking about it recently.

Yup. Here's a video of the prototype in action:
http://www.spiegel.de/video/wunderwaffe-railgun-us-marine-testet-prototypen-der-superkanone-video-1181625.html
Sorry, German news website. According to the Navy, it's supposed to be ready by 2017 and installed on ships by 2020.

The only real problem with the railgun is that the barrel needs to get rebuilt every few shots. The flames you see in the video isn't propellent, its the vaporized insides of the gun.