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Dear Dakka,

I have been out of the reach of a GW store for the last month or so (a nigh on impossible task, to be sure) and have just picked up the new Empire Army Book and felt like having a rant. If anyone knows of someone who has already covered this topic, please post the link below I would love to have a read!

Anyway, here goes nothing:

HEIRLOOMS

sweet, one page of items. And meteoric iron is now astronomically expensive.


LORDS/HEROES

Only beef here is that despite wizards and WPs getting a bit of a discount, Captains and generals are now more expensive. Great. The advantage Empire players used to have in fielding cheap characters is effectively nerfed. If they were going to make the mundane characters more expensive, they could have at least given them FP instead of cardboard armour. ENgineers, whilst more useful now given the new artillery rules for HBs, are still WAY TOO EXPENSIVE and don't have enough BS IMO to make them worth their points.

Also, whilst twin headed griffons are cool, they don't really fit with my idea of the empire as a bastion of mankind slogging it out in a world of chaos spawned monstrosities. We used to be about technology and discipline, not fancy flyers. And don't even get me started on the wizard wagons (shudders at such profligate heresy).

Also, WP prayers: WT?????

CORE

Great, pretty much everything is more expensive. I was holding out for 4pt halberdiers but alas. Swordsmen have been mightily nerfed in this rules edition and now with their whopping points cost and reduced Initiative my big blocks from 6th and 7th ed when the empire used to have good value for money infantry are going to be collecting dust it would seem.

Knightly Orders are now even more expensive and simply cannot compete with Bretonnian Knights of the realm for value for money. The restriction on Inner Circle Knights is pretty useless cos who took them before anyway.

Fiddling with the missile troops in terms of cost is fine, except you get more bang for your buck with dwarves.

In sum, there are no longer any core selections that are 'good value' ie truly worth the amount of points they cost. This sticks the Empire between the shaven and the undead with plentiful cheap troops and chaos with expensive demigods. Empire troops are now more expensive than marauders and have less equipment choices and no access to buffs like marks.

Detachments are pretty much the same and therefore effectively nerfed by 8th ed.

SPECIAL

Demigryph knights are ridiculous and don't fit with Imperial fluff at all. More on that later.

Pistoleros and outriders are still too expensive when compared with orr fast cav units.

Mortars have been mightily nerfed and are now horribly expensive. Great Cannons also more expensive. Sweet, there goes the other good thing about the empire, the artillery. The other special choice that fits with the imperial fluff is the greats words. These guys still don't have enough options (give me a shield!!!) are now more expensive, and cannot stand up to anyone else's heavy infantry. At all. Stubborn is completely useless now we have steadfast, so again, whats the point.

Putting huntsmen into the special slot was not unexpected and is pretty standard, but they are still terrible compared with anyone else's scouts.

RARE

cool, helblasters are even more expensive. As are flagellants, but at least you can take them in decent sized blocks now. I have a feeling we will be seeing a lot more of these bad boys.

A note on wizard wagons: COMPLETELY OUT OF CHARACTER WITH THE ENTIRE THEME OF THIS ARMY. No more need be said.


Here endeth the rant, disagreement encouraged!

Cheers,

cK

All I hear is waaaah. The new empire book is fine. I love it actually. Detachments are more powerful than before. Warrior priests are amazing now. Witch hunters are back. It just sounds like your crying for the sake of crying.

Bored at work, I'll go into more detail about why this is crying and why your better off.

HEIRLOOMS

sweet, one page of items. And meteoric iron is now astronomically expensive.

standard for 8th edition books. Not to mention it was expected as the generic armor that functioned similarly is 45 points in the brb and not as good. It's still a bargain IMO. 50 points for 1+ with 6+ ward vs 45 points for 2+ armor. Hmmm.

LORDS/HEROES

Only beef here is that despite wizards and WPs getting a bit of a discount, Captains and generals are now more expensive. Great. The advantage Empire players used to have in fielding cheap characters is effectively nerfed. If they were going to make the mundane characters more expensive, they could have at least given them FP instead of cardboard armour. ENgineers, whilst more useful now given the new artillery rules for HBs, are still WAY TOO EXPENSIVE and don't have enough BS IMO to make them worth their points.

Also, whilst twin headed griffons are cool, they don't really fit with my idea of the empire as a bastion of mankind slogging it out in a world of chaos spawned monstrosities. We used to be about technology and discipline, not fancy flyers. And don't even get me started on the wizard wagons (shudders at such profligate heresy).

Also, WP prayers: WT?????

While our generals and captains got more expensive almost every hero type got better. The ability to hold the line is amazing not to mention this applies to detachments to? You have to expect the cost to go up. Warrior priests are now OP. 65 points for what they do
Is insane. They removed the 1 prayer per turn rule and in turn gave us 2 amazing spells that change the game. Not only that but they aren't wizards so failing to cast one prayer does not prevent you from casting the next. More often the. Not I throw a dice at a prayer and say deal with it. Our prayers got much better.

Witch hunters are amazing anti characters. I basically would take it and just a brace of pistols for 55 points keeping it cheap. Put them in the unit your worried about direct damage/magic missiles hitting most and they gain magic resistance 2. This means for 25 points your getting a character sniper.

Wizards are wizards. Engineers are engineers. Not much changed with them but point cost remained the same.

CORE

Great, pretty much everything is more expensive. I was holding out for 4pt halberdiers but alas. Swordsmen have been mightily nerfed in this rules edition and now with their whopping points cost and reduced Initiative my big blocks from 6th and 7th ed when the empire used to have good value for money infantry are going to be collecting dust it would seem.

Knightly Orders are now even more expensive and simply cannot compete with Bretonnian Knights of the realm for value for money. The restriction on Inner Circle Knights is pretty useless cos who took them before anyway.

Fiddling with the missile troops in terms of cost is fine, except you get more bang for your buck with dwarves.

In sum, there are no longer any core selections that are 'good value' ie truly worth the amount of points they cost. This sticks the Empire between the shaven and the undead with plentiful cheap troops and chaos with expensive demigods. Empire troops are now more expensive than marauders and have less equipment choices and no access to buffs like marks.

Detachments are pretty much the same and therefore effectively nerfed by 8th ed.

Point costs went up because detachments are better. The ability to confer hatred and stubborn to your detachments are amazing. Not to mention the fact that warrior priests prayers hit detachments too? That is rediculous. Finally they removed the requirement to be within 3" at all times, which helps positioning and allows prolonged use of the detachment system. Detachments got a huge buff this time and I for one love it.

As for core being worthless? I placed in a comped 500 point tournament using just a warrior priest, halberdiers, detachments of free company, and handgunners. The person who won's combo will be banned next tourney. While I agree that our missile troops are too expensive I think our cc troops are fine especially with the buffs to detachments.

SPECIAL

Demigryph knights are ridiculous and don't fit with Imperial fluff at all. More on that later.

Pistoleros and outriders are still too expensive when compared with orr fast cav units.

Mortars have been mightily nerfed and are now horribly expensive. Great Cannons also more expensive. Sweet, there goes the other good thing about the empire, the artillery. The other special choice that fits with the imperial fluff is the greats words. These guys still don't have enough options (give me a shield!!!) are now more expensive, and cannot stand up to anyone else's heavy infantry. At all. Stubborn is completely useless now we have steadfast, so again, whats the point.

Putting huntsmen into the special slot was not unexpected and is pretty standard, but they are still terrible compared with anyone else's scouts.

Greatswords are still good. Mortar now does what it was originally intended to be (anti skaven/ng/hordes of undead) and is exactly worth the price it is. Cannon was too good and got adjusted. It's still underpriced IMO (character sniping with a cannon should have never happened IMO). Demigryffon nights are too expensive for their role but great models. Flagelents are now too expensive. I love the rule changes but I kinda feel like Im sacrificing too many points using them even if they're worth thier points. Not to mention the change to +1 toughness helps them a lot and theyre no longer ws2 i2.

RARE

cool, helblasters are even more expensive. As are flagellants, but at least you can take them in decent sized blocks now. I have a feeling we will be seeing a lot more of these bad boys.

A note on wizard wagons: COMPLETELY OUT OF CHARACTER WITH THE ENTIRE THEME OF THIS ARMY. No more need be said.

Rares are fine. The battle wagons reflect specific colleges thus are completely in character. I look forward to trying to convert them to match my undead empire theme.

Cry all you want, having an army that can be stubborn all around* - not steaddfast, STUBBORN! - with a 3d6 roll for breaking means your units need to be killed to the last man because they will NEVER break. Add in that your priest can renew Hatred every turn, what more do you want? IC Knights blow ALL the Bret Core Knights - and Special Choice Knights - clear off the map, because a) they're stubborn, and b) you can have 100 of them if you want, I'm stuck with no more than 15 of them per unit. AND they're cheaper.

And demigryphs blow peggie knights away... the only advantage PK have is in maneuverability; DGK hit harder, have much better armor, and CONTINUE hitting harder on subsequent turns. Even GRAIL knights - which cost more on a per attack basis, and MUCH more on a per wound basis - can't compete with them.

So all I'm hearing is "WAAAAHHHHH! They changed stuff!" from someone who hasn't tried to actually USE any of the neat toys they gave you!

* Core of Inner Circle Knights, Special of Swordsmen, and then DGK will never loose a combat so who cares if they are stubborn or not?

Demigryphons aren't as good as you think Vulcan. But I agree with the rest. We got buffs. Demigriphs just suffer the same problem as other calvary. Sure it hits hard but if you don't run the first turn of combat they're screwed. They're flankers and warmachine hunters and expensive, unwieldy ones at that.

Demigryphs: How are they screwed after the first turn of combat?
They actually hit pretty hard every round. And they have the durabiltiy to hold if they get counter charged.

Shove a unit of Demigryphs into a unit of horded Saurus Warriors, and see if you still think they are only outflankers/warmachine hunters.

Davall wrote:Shove a unit of Demigryphs into a unit of horded Saurus Warriors, and see if you still think they are only outflankers/warmachine hunters.

In fairness iv have never had any trouble with saurus. Halberds knights greatswords flagellants or a stank all have butchered them

Jayo'r wrote:

Davall wrote:Shove a unit of Demigryphs into a unit of horded Saurus Warriors, and see if you still think they are only outflankers/warmachine hunters.

In fairness iv have never had any trouble with saurus. Halberds knights greatswords flagellants or a stank all have butchered them

Truth. Yes they are good against midrange units. They struggle against great cc units and tar pits. I have yet to have them do anything to chaos warriors. Marauders with gw usually have so many dice that they overpower demogryphs. At 58 points a peice they need to be atleast around 360 points to be effective and losing just one guy kills the flanking effectiveness. I'd rather take a unit of 11 knights with a warrior priest. It does the same thing but is more effective for similar points.

Hmm well,

Thankyou all for your input! Certainly makes a few things clearer in my mind. I still don't think our foot can hold up against (point for point) with someone like chaos or high elves. And I notice no one disagreed with my point about Swordsmen...???

cK

Expecting our core to hold up with elite troops is not gonna work. Our troops aren't designed that way. Now give it a balanced list of warrior priest and halberdiers with detachments of free companies at equal points is say you'd do well.

Not to mention the knights with gw are even better. S5 asl, with hatred, 2+ armor, and 5+ ward? That will tear chaos knights a new one.

Stoupe wrote:Demigryphons aren't as good as you think Vulcan. But I agree with the rest. We got buffs. Demigriphs just suffer the same problem as other calvary. Sure it hits hard but if you don't run the first turn of combat they're screwed. They're flankers and warmachine hunters and expensive, unwieldy ones at that.

Having had my lances hammered (halberded?) into pulp by Demigyphs, yes they are that good... at least vs. Brets. Even Men-At-Arms have a hard time doing enough damage to them to kill them before the DGK kill enough to remove steadfast and make them run. 4 S5 attacks (3 with AP) per model is pretty nasty. Giving them 3 wounds and a 1+ save on top of that is ridiculous.

Stoupe wrote: Truth. Yes they are good against midrange units. They struggle against great cc units and tar pits. I have yet to have them do anything to chaos warriors. Marauders with gw usually have so many dice that they overpower demogryphs. At 58 points a peice they need to be atleast around 360 points to be effective and losing just one guy kills the flanking effectiveness. I'd rather take a unit of 11 knights with a warrior priest. It does the same thing but is more effective for similar points.

How were the Chaos Warriors equipped? If with Sword and Shield, Demigryphs should do fine. If with Halberds, send in the Stank. Against Marauders you're better off with Halberdiers with a Warrior Priest.

Demigryphs can't take on the absolute best combat units in the game, but they can handle most, which is why I find your statement of "sure it hits hard but if you don't run the first turn of combat they're screwed" misleading.

And less than 250pts for 4 Demigryphs with musician, I find they do their job great.

Like a lot of people I was pretty unhappy when the new Empire book came out, because like most people the first things I noticed were the point increases for basic troops and war machines.

Having used it a few times now in games I can say my opinion of the new book has improved considerably. It's hard to appreciate from just reading the book how powerful the new Warrior Priests rules are, and how much they combine with the boosted detachment rules to produce Empire troops that can be extremely deadly in combat, despite their modest stat line, but once you get a few games in you realise how well it works together. Add in the new demigryphs, and the Empire can now build purely combat oriented armies with a pretty decent chance of winning. And it's actually a really interesting way to play, as it still captures the combined arms, synergistic feel of the Empire, as you can't build super units, but instead rely on the qualities of multiple units, and a variety of potential buff sources, to beat the enemy.

That said, Empire shooting took a serious hit. Cannons got priced to what they are worth, and helblasters got fixed so much they're now way too good, but other than that Empire shooting got rather thoroughly nerfed. Mortars could have had either a points increase or a strength drop, but doing both just made them far too expensive for what they are, unless you know you're facing a T3 army. Helblasters are reasonable, but not reliable enough ever be anything more than nice way to spend some spare points. All of that wouldn't be to devestating (at any given point generally one Empire war machine is too good, and one never worth taking), but they coupled this with a points hike for missile troops so that you now pay far too much for what damage they are likely to do.

All this has really meant that from my games experience, I've found when I've been concerned about my list being a little weak for my opponent, the first units I cut are the ranged units. The lists I've found my strongest have had nothing more than a brace of shots from some pistoliers and the cannon of the steam tank (niether of which is there for their shooting).

It's a different Empire army, and while I'm not happy with everything in the book, I think playing some games with it will make it clear it is a lot stronger than it first looked. Just make sure you keep your Warrior Priests alive.

I think most of what the book has done is just fine, like other army books they are trying to add bigger models like monsters or monster cavalry and empire is no exception. A two-headed griffon may not be for you but that doesnt mean you have to model it that way, its just an option for someone who wants to add something like that, maybe it fits with their theme of being a northern province and therefore closer to the influence of chaos if not corrupted by it.

Shooting I think took a legitimate hit as 8th edition simply made shooting less powerful due to larger block sizes. Compared to state troops getting an increase in point it still works because of the great boost characters got, with "hold the line" and the innate bound spells of WP, troops can last much longer and fight harder.

As for the wizard wagons, I personally dont have one (well except the war alter, which I dont think people would argue against) but I appreciate the variety it creates. Mankind is capable of many different philosophies and themes and that should be reflected through diverse units they have. Honestly, superstition and fear of magic seems more like Bretonnia's thing. The Empire is an advanced society and has colleges of magic and so they shouldn't be so against using wizard wagons