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Hey guys,

So I've built a Vampires army and started on Empire... and part of that process was (naturally) reading the Empire Army Book. And I have to say that Karl Franz irks me a tad.

The guy is so Mary Sue(ish) in his perfectness. It doesn't seem as if (according to Lexicanum or the Army Book) that the guy has ever made a mistake ever. He seems to enjoy the affections and love of EVERYONE. Hell, it wouldn't surprise me if random Warriors of Chaos were heard to remark 'For an unbeliever, he sure is one helluva guy'. I find that it is easiest to emphasise with a character or at least find them cool if they are somewhat *flawed*, if they ever encounter adversity. But nope, Karl Franz is a supa-dupa warrior, ultimate statesman, genius and athlete; with no character flaws whatsoever. What gives? For such a fractured state, the Empire seems to have a whole bunch of loyalty/love for him. I'd have thought that the system through which the Emperor is selected would spawn some disdain or at least apathy toward Franz, but it seems like every Warrior, every War Altar and every Steam Tank is proud to plaster KARL FRANZ all over themselves. Perhaps that's simply symptomatic of a problem with a lot of GW Army Books/Codices, that is, tailoring it primarily towards a small part of the greater faction (AKA Codex: Space Marines being Codex: Ultramarines, or The Vampires Army Book essentially being 'The Von Carsteins')

The Marneus Calgar reference pretty much refers squarely to similar accusations levelled towards him thanks to what's perceived as Matt Ward's butchery of Ultramarine fluff.

Rant over. I'd like to hear some thoughts, maybe veteran Fantasy players will put me in my place and correct me about Karl 'The Perfect Mary Sue and Honourary Ultramarine' Franz.

Well if a dude can stare down a griffon and bitch slap it into complete and utter loyalty, you have to give him some respect. And he has saved the empire multiple times. Not to mention he has the magic hammer of skullfuckery.

thedarkavenger wrote:Not to mention he has the magic hammer of skullfuckery.

That is now mine for my sig

motyak wrote:

thedarkavenger wrote:Not to mention he has the magic hammer of skullfuckery.

That is now mine for my sig

Lol.

As Far as Karl Franz, I have not read the fluff. I would suggest viewing the fluff surrounding him as perhaps him having a really good propaganda publicist. The Empire needs a uniting figure, one that appears infallible, whether Karl Franz IS all the things the codex fluff says he is or not, does not matter, it is what was written and it is what the people (of the Empire) believe.
(I am trying to see things from a fluff perspective for answering this. I equate the Empire in Fantasy, roughly to the Holy Roman Empire in the 14th Century. It was heresy to question the Church, the Church appointed the Holy Roman Emperor, therefore, the Holy Roman Emperor could do no wrong. )

Karl Franz is really the Emperor!!!!

Surprise!

thedarkavenger wrote:Well if a dude can stare down a griffon and bitch slap it into complete and utter loyalty, you have to give him some respect. And he has saved the empire multiple times. Not to mention he has the magic hammer of skullfuckery.

I'm not suggesting that the existing fluff doesn't serve the character credit; it's evidence to suggest that in-universe he's badass. What I begrudge is that the fluff exists in the first place; there's not a bad thing to be said about Franz.


The issue here isn't that in-universe fluff suggests that Franz is imperfect, but rather the decision of the lorewriters to make him infallible.

Back in the more cynical good old days it was subtly implied in WFRP that the Karl Franz encountered on the battlefield was in fact one of a number if experienced champions wearing gold armour and a fake moustache...

I'm actually reading a book title "Reiksgaurd" by Richard Williams. In that book he actually portrays the Empire in a very fractious state, one where realms bicker against each other and some even extend to outright loathing and subterfuge, anything short of outright war against each other. I think that Rivet has a good way of putting it, think of the fluff from the codex as propaganda perpetuated by not only an oppressive, highly religious government, but also from a crushed populace that is afraid to believe anything else, both because their afraid the witch hunters will come for them and because if their Emperor isn't something that is more than a man, how can they ever have any hope that he can keep them safe? I really think that Franz has some darkness in his past that hasn't popped up in stories or has been squashed away by zealots and fanboys...

English Assassin wrote:Back in the more cynical good old days it was subtly implied in WFRP that the Karl Franz encountered on the battlefield was in fact one of a number if experienced champions wearing gold armour and a fake moustache...

I like this idea

Gromgor wrote:I'm actually reading a book title "Reiksgaurd" by Richard Williams. In that book he actually portrays the Empire in a very fractious state, one where realms bicker against each other and some even extend to outright loathing and subterfuge, anything short of outright war against each other.

I don't think the current Army Book (as I am new with 8th edition I have no idea how the older books put it) shies away from depicting the Empire as suffering from internal problems; it even describes outright war between the constituent states. I just think that the writers have chosen to elevate Franz as this sort of saviour figure who is the sole point of unity. The propaganda point is a good one perhaps but I do wish that there were at least nods to some friction toward him from the other Elector Counts.

I don't know if I've pulled this out of nowhere but wasn't an Emperor (it might've been Franz, I'm not sure) elected only because of the votes added by the Cult of Sigmar? At least that implies that he did not enjoy anywhere near majority support amongst the Counts. I like a bit of darkness and plotting... internal strife and politics always make stories more interesting

It's not portrayed in the fluff, but Franz's job isn't as clear cut as it seems, and he's hardly infallible.

He's one of the major pillars holding up the fractured Empire together, trying his best as an outstanding statesmen and general, and yet the Empire's still barely managing to get by.

He's not infallible, he's what the men of the Empire aspire to and despite his greatness they're still only managing to get by, rather than prosper. He IS the sole point of unity, not out of some sort of mary-sueness.

I really don't see your point.

Karl Franz is simply the pinnacle of system in which divide and rule is the policy and the practice. In such systems virtue is emphasised to mask the vice and to act as a mirror to reality.

In politics it is called spin.

I play Ogres, and I view the fluff in an entirely different way to the 'official' version. Which is frankly a tad silly.

Well firstly, Karl Franz came along time before Marneus Calgar. And secondly, the two just aren't comparable. The political system represented in Fantasy is that of feudal England and germany in the middle ages. The one represented in 40K is one of a political extreme in which one power rules absolutely.

so I'm a little lost as to your meaning...

I'm not sure what kind of character flaws the OP is expecting, can you give an example of a "well written" character in fantasy or 40k by your standards?

You don't get to be the leader of the most powerful nation of men by being riddled with flaws. The point the fluff writers are trying to emphasize is that Karl Franz is the pillar that holds the rather divided empire together.

EmilCrane wrote:I'm not sure what kind of character flaws the OP is expecting, can you give an example of a "well written" character in fantasy or 40k by your standards?

You don't get to be the leader of the most powerful nation of men by being riddled with flaws. The point the fluff writers are trying to emphasize is that Karl Franz is the pillar that holds the rather divided empire together.

This sums it up, Karl FRanzs also have the benefit of having a good propaganda appartus backing him up. And saving the world on several occaction from death by Orcs & Goblins, Vampires, Daemons and other assorted gribblies tends to make people stand out in folklore.

thedarkavenger wrote:Well if a dude can stare down a griffon and bitch slap it into complete and utter loyalty, you have to give him some respect. And he has saved the empire multiple times. Not to mention he has the magic hammer of skullfuckery.

Exalted and got a good strong laugh out of me. Good job sir.

@OP thedarkavenger's post answered this whole thread. The end.

Karl Franz is just like Calgar. Except Franz doesn't need power armor to get by, he does it in regular armor with the aforementioned hammer of skullfuckery.

Karl Franz>Calgar

EmilCrane wrote:I'm not sure what kind of character flaws the OP is expecting, can you give an example of a "well written" character in fantasy or 40k by your standards?

You don't get to be the leader of the most powerful nation of men by being riddled with flaws. The point the fluff writers are trying to emphasize is that Karl Franz is the pillar that holds the rather divided empire together.

From the same book? Marius Leitdorf. Still a brave chap with military achievements to his name, but he has a fatal flaw.

As for flaws that one could hold whilst still achieving his role as statesman? Well... fondness for drink, womanising, a temper... I think historical figures have held these and been powerful before.

Franz seems to have just *had it all* from his birth; a most fortunate gentleman, no? He's got incredible intellect, amazing skills as a statesman and can still 'bitchslap' and fight like a pro. Hell, like most Warhammer Generals, he seems more proficient in fighting from the front than sitting back and contemplating strategy. I get that he has a role on the tabletop, but he seems to have eggs in every basket; for some reason I don't think, say, Julius Caesar, could have been a great general and yet still been able to singlehandedly duel everything and everyone.

My point thus is that there is no flaw to Karl Franz and no area in which he doesn't excel. I wouldn't be surprised if he was in MENSA, was the object of the attentions of all the ladies in the Old World, was a five time rowing champion, chess master and could drink anyone under the table. He also has an awful habit of personally winning every battle ever by duelling the enemy general ('cos in Warhammer, generals don't, y'know, lead and hand out orders from the rear where they can contact all their units and observe the full extent of the battle...)

The guy is just too perfect for my tastes; there's not even a hint of him having a temper, or having killed anyone on the way to the top.

One need not be a saint to be Emperor; am I to believe that in the twisted politics of the Empire, nobody has ever made it to the top through bribery, collusion, assassinations and propaganda? Franz only seems to exercise the latter of these judging by the responses to this post.

Again, read up on his griffon. If anybody attacks him they deal with Schwarzhelm, Helborg, and a very angry griffon. Not to mention the entire reiksguard...

That is how they prevent assassinations.

As for the statesman thing, he has to be a brilliant statesman to lead, all empire leaders have to be able to rouse the troops with climactic speeches when all seems lost.

And he has to fight, because of you know, the constant chaos invasions, the orcs, vampires etc...

I fear to suppose how Magnus the Pious is Mary-Sueish.
And I'm terrified to suppose how the people of the Empire, dealing with bloodthirsters with just their muskets, swords and simple, medieval-age cannons are mary-Sueish.
Damn, NOW I'm terrified.

thedarkavenger wrote:Again, read up on his griffon. If anybody attacks him they deal with Schwarzhelm, Helborg, and a very angry griffon. Not to mention the entire reiksguard...

That is how they prevent assassinations.

As for the statesman thing, he has to be a brilliant statesman to lead, all empire leaders have to be able to rouse the troops with climactic speeches when all seems lost.

And he has to fight, because of you know, the constant chaos invasions, the orcs, vampires etc...

You've misunderstood me there.

I am asking why Franz can't have perhaps gotten where he is through some foul play, perhaps assassinations are a bit extremeish but there's room for some 'darkening' in that area.

As for the rest, you're justifying why the ideal Emperor should have these traits, not why Franz necessarily should. Yeah, sure, ideally he should be able to fight... but would a Head of State that wasn't a Warrior-God on the battlefield really be an epic fail? Is Napoleon remembered as a pants leader because he didn't go wading through his enemies' ranks with a Warhammer, sending scores flying into oblivion? The Statesman thing I'd take as a necessity, yes, but the other traits? Why is it so necessary for Franz to excel at *everything*? Nobody has addressed my feeling that he essentially does not suck at a single thing, has no visible weaknesses or any character flaws, making him an unbelievable character.

Karl Franz sucks at not sucking. HA! Plus the leaders of the Empire are meant to lead on the battlefield. He is meant to be an uber-general. As he is also an elector count...and counts are trained in the arts of combat, like all medieval lords. Plus he may have character flaws, but GW haven't focused on them. Is it so bad to focus on the good things instead of the bad? As for why the people love him, they have no choice. If they don't they will be declared heretics and get the daylights kicked out of them by the CHURCH OF SIGMAR! as well as the empire military etc...

I thought this was dark fantasy eh?

I mean, GW even blatantly shows the flaws of the Holy Emprah in 40k; there are many instances regarding him where one can go 'What a fool.'

Karl Franz is a great warrior, but he's by no means the bestest fightar evar in blue armor.

Just take a look at his stats. If he has a weakness, it's because he's human.

Henners91 wrote:I thought this was dark fantasy eh?

I mean, GW even blatantly shows the flaws of the Holy Emprah in 40k; there are many instances regarding him where one can go 'What a fool.'

Fantasy isn't exactly grimdark to the point of hilarity. There's good, there's evil, there's stupidity, there's intelligence, there's stupid good, and there's stupid evil.

But it's not 100% grim dark.

Henners91 wrote:

thedarkavenger wrote:Again, read up on his griffon. If anybody attacks him they deal with Schwarzhelm, Helborg, and a very angry griffon. Not to mention the entire reiksguard...

That is how they prevent assassinations.

As for the statesman thing, he has to be a brilliant statesman to lead, all empire leaders have to be able to rouse the troops with climactic speeches when all seems lost.

And he has to fight, because of you know, the constant chaos invasions, the orcs, vampires etc...

You've misunderstood me there.

I am asking why Franz can't have perhaps gotten where he is through some foul play, perhaps assassinations are a bit extremeish but there's room for some 'darkening' in that area.

As for the rest, you're justifying why the ideal Emperor should have these traits, not why Franz necessarily should. Yeah, sure, ideally he should be able to fight... but would a Head of State that wasn't a Warrior-God on the battlefield really be an epic fail? Is Napoleon remembered as a pants leader because he didn't go wading through his enemies' ranks with a Warhammer, sending scores flying into oblivion? The Statesman thing I'd take as a necessity, yes, but the other traits? Why is it so necessary for Franz to excel at *everything*? Nobody has addressed my feeling that he essentially does not suck at a single thing, has no visible weaknesses or any character flaws, making him an unbelievable character.

He sucks at quantum physics

Henners91 wrote:

thedarkavenger wrote:Again, read up on his griffon. If anybody attacks him they deal with Schwarzhelm, Helborg, and a very angry griffon. Not to mention the entire reiksguard...

That is how they prevent assassinations.

As for the statesman thing, he has to be a brilliant statesman to lead, all empire leaders have to be able to rouse the troops with climactic speeches when all seems lost.

And he has to fight, because of you know, the constant chaos invasions, the orcs, vampires etc...

You've misunderstood me there.

I am asking why Franz can't have perhaps gotten where he is through some foul play, perhaps assassinations are a bit extremeish but there's room for some 'darkening' in that area.

As for the rest, you're justifying why the ideal Emperor should have these traits, not why Franz necessarily should. Yeah, sure, ideally he should be able to fight... but would a Head of State that wasn't a Warrior-God on the battlefield really be an epic fail? Is Napoleon remembered as a pants leader because he didn't go wading through his enemies' ranks with a Warhammer, sending scores flying into oblivion? The Statesman thing I'd take as a necessity, yes, but the other traits? Why is it so necessary for Franz to excel at *everything*? Nobody has addressed my feeling that he essentially does not suck at a single thing, has no visible weaknesses or any character flaws, making him an unbelievable character.

He has not yet manahed to get Marienburg to return to the Empire, or reconquer the Drakenwald from the Beastmen, not has he managed to find a way to stop those pesky Vampires from reappering from time to time. Not sure if this qualifies as regard to what you ask about, he also have not managed to weed out all the corruption or heresy that is prolific in the Empire