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I had a game recently where my buddy used Puppet Master on my Dreadnaught. Thing is he then proceeded to rotate/pivot and fire at a target not originally in the dreadnaught's front arc. This seemed wrong to me, since Puppet Master only states that you may fire with the model as if it was yours. . am I missing something or can dreadnaughts pivot before shooting now? I know this would not work with a vehicle such as a vindicator or leman russ.

By RAW, no. Walkers may pivot on the spot to face their target (p84, 'Shooting With Walkers'), but you cannot select a target that is not already in your line of sight (p12, 'Line of Sight').

The other thing with puppet master to keep in mind is that as a focused witchfire, he still needs to hit with it.

walkers can pivot on the spot on the shooting phase as stated in the new rulebook:

"when firing a walker's weapons,
pivot the Walker on the spot so that its guns are aimed
at the target ...Range is
measured frorn the weapon itself and line of sight is measured
from the mounting point of the weapon and along its barrel,
as normal for vehicles."

Same exact rule as last edition, but Cheexsta has this one right.

It seems that walkers have an exception to the pg.12 rules because checking range and determining LoS is clearly listed after the pivot.

Yabbaddabbaddon.

I feel like Brom would be correct, if not then why bother pivoting them during the shooting phase if they are already required to have LOS, thus their guns are already facing their target.

Later it quotes that immobilized walkers cannot pivot and therefore can only fire upon targets in their current weapon arc (a.k.a. LoS).

I could be mistaken and I'm writing this very quickly during my lunch break.

Of course I'd like everyone to agree with me.

I am, afterall, the buddy in question.

GreyChaos wrote:I feel like Brom would be correct, if not then why bother pivoting them during the shooting phase if they are already required to have LOS, thus their guns are already facing their target.

Later it quotes that immobilized walkers cannot pivot and therefore can only fire upon targets in their current weapon arc (a.k.a. LoS).

I could be mistaken and I'm writing this very quickly during my lunch break.

Both guns may not be already in LOS, though. This ensures both get a chance to fire.


According to page 12 you must draw LOS to the target, the Walker specific rules then allow you to turn and face the target before drawing LOS

GreyChaos wrote:I feel like Brom would be correct, if not then why bother pivoting them during the shooting phase if they are already required to have LOS, thus their guns are already facing their target.

If you pivot, then more of the enemy unit would be in LOS so more could be taken as casualties. That's one reason right there.

It may have been GW's intention to allow it to pivot freely, but RAW says otherwise. On a similar note, regular infantry have no rules allowing them to pivot during the shooting phase, either.

I see what you're saying Nos and pg 8/12 obviously support it. It simply seems odd that a walker is capable of pivoting quickly enough to prevent rear hits in an assault, but can only move a meager 45 degrees left or right to fire its weapons. However, I've heard plenty of times to not use reason when playing this game so I'll let it go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well had a shower and a smoke to think about it and applied true thought to the matter. A walker is capable of moving/pivoting freely during its movement phase correct? Assuming that here is the following...

Weapon systems require two target validations prior to firing, track-on and lock-on. Track-on is a broad sweep of area to find valid targets and once discovered the radar system begins to focus upon them. At this point lock-on takes over and makes fine adjustments to the site to ensure it's in line with boresight prior to weapon release (also has to check a few thousand times if the target is an enemy, but our models seem pretty good and avoiding friendlies most of the time).

Now I'm sure that didn't matter to any of you, but looking at it as that it makes the pivoting during the shooting phase make more sense because if you turn enough to lose sight of your current target then you must acquire a new target and that takes a lot of time. Anyhow that's just my silly thoughts.

Allowing the opponent to pivot then fire seems extremely abusive, as now you've just turned the walker's rear armor to the entire army for the remaineder of the shooting phase.

Using Hallucination to stop 30 boyz + Gazzy from moving for FOUR TURNS IN A ROW seems abusive, but I did it.. and it's legal. Why is the dreadnought abusive, when it clearly says pivot before shooting in the rules? Abusive is a terribly subjective word and I'd say I am far from "abusive". What's abusive about running all Thousand Sons on foot?

Might I add that I did not end up shooting at the dreadnought, AND the dreadnought didn't even kill anything when I made it shoot. Abusive?

Edit: Sorry, it ended up using a Heavy Flamer to kill 5 or 6 Boyz.

How is making a dreadnought pivot to "make a shooting attack" different than making a Leman Russ turn it's turret 180 degrees to "make a shooting attack"? Both things are legal and totally supported by the rules for vehicles.

Brometheus wrote:How is making a dreadnought pivot to "make a shooting attack" different than making a Leman Russ turn it's turret 180 degrees to "make a shooting attack"? Both things are legal and totally supported by the rules for vehicles.

Ah, I see.

Normally, you must be able to draw line of sight before you can pick a target (p12). The vehicle rules are supposed to be the exception, in that it tells you to check line of sight after choosing the target (p72); I had been reading this as being an addition to, rather than instead of, the normal rules for choosing a target. It is the poor use of the word "target" that is confusing here - they really should have said "potential target" for it to make sense.

I still say that strict RAW would prevent you from pivoting a walker (or moving any weapons in the case of any other vehicle), but this would make shooty vehicles nearly impossible to use.

Cheexsta wrote:
I still say that strict RAW would prevent you from pivoting a walker (or moving any weapons in the case of any other vehicle), but this would make shooty vehicles nearly impossible to use.

A fair point, my friend.

Know much about Flames of War? They make turret facing of tanks EXTREMELY important. So you'd better think about where it points ahead of time.