Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Apologies if this has already been answered, I have not been able to find it anywhere on the internet.

So, my question involves the wording of the Fortune Psychic power, allies, and Independent Characters. The specific situation is as follows:

10 man unit of Grotesques joined by an Archon, Eldrad, and a Farseer. The idea is that Eldrad hits the unit with the Divination power Forewarning to give the whole thing a 4+ Inv save, and then have the Farseer hit the unit with Fortune to make for a rolling unkillable blob of death (T 5, 3W models with re-rollable 4++, then FNP, plus Archon with a re-rollable 2++ to suck up challenges).

Everything checks out thus far save for Fortune. The new rules leave me confused here. Being Battle Brothers (odd given the fluff of the 2 armies, but I'll take what I can get), the book says that the units are friendly units for the targeting of psychic powers. However, the Eldar Codex says 'friendly Eldar unit'. The FAQ says nothing, so, what happens?

My questions are along the lines of:

Can the Grotesques be targeted by Fortune?
Can the Farseer target HIMSELF with Fortune despite being joined to a Grotesque unit?
Are he and Eldrad separate targets for the purposes of casting fortune despite being joined to the same unit?
If the Archon was joined to a Craftworld Eldar unit that had Fortune cast upon it, would he benefit from it?
Does the fact that both units are technically 'Eldar' (fortune doesn't specify craftworld Eldar) mean anything?

Thanks in advance.

Taking the hint from the rules for hatred (tangental I know) on page 37, which states that Hatred (Orks) means any model from Codex: Orks (Including grots etc); I'd say that Fortune can be targetted on any unit from Codex: Eldar.
Fortunetly for you (pun intended), that will include Eldrad and the Farseer himself, and therefore affect the whole squad and any IC's attatched to it (I think: My Eldar codex is currently hiding from me so I can't be totally sure).

That would be my interpretation at least. Have fun with your new deathstar unit, you naughty naughty man.

It's kind of been gone over before and I think it ended up getting locked. Now with that said I wouldn't have a problem with you doing it since both are members of the Eldar race, and nowhere does it say that units from Codex: Eldar may reroll failed saves. It says Eldar may reroll failed saves.

However you could easily target yourself with the power and since you are considered one unit...is the target Eldar...is Eldrad or a Farseer eldar? Yep. The unit is effected.

Akroma06 wrote:It's kind of been gone over before and I think it ended up getting locked. Now with that said I wouldn't have a problem with you doing it since both are members of the Eldar race, and nowhere does it say that units from Codex: Eldar may reroll failed saves. It says Eldar may reroll failed saves.

However you could easily target yourself with the power and since you are considered one unit...is the target Eldar...is Eldrad or a Farseer eldar? Yep. The unit is effected.

the new IC rules state that when a character joins a unit, they become part of that unit. Eldrad and the Farseer are considered to be models in the unit of grotesques. Grotesques are a dark eldar unit.

An archon who joins a unit of wraithguard, conversly, is considered to be an eldar unit.

Because fortune tells you to target a unit, not a model, it cannot be specifically target at an individual model within a unit, but rather targets the unit as a whole.

^^ This... +1

So you have a unit of Dark Eldar and Eldar as one unit. So my original point stands...do you have a unit with eldar in it? Yes then you have an eldar unit.

You have a UNIT of Dark Eldar. It has Eldar MODELS in it that joined it. It is a Dark Eldar UNIT before, during and after the Edlar MODEL joined it.

Tactica wrote:You have a UNIT of Dark Eldar. It has Eldar MODELS in it that joined it. It is a Dark Eldar UNIT before, during and after the Edlar MODEL joined it.

This is how I read it as well. The unit is a unit of Grotesques; the Farseer & Eldrad have joined it, and are now considered part of that unit of Grotesques.

You can also read some discussion of this point over here, where it came up in Tournament Discussions.

Falconlance wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:It's kind of been gone over before and I think it ended up getting locked. Now with that said I wouldn't have a problem with you doing it since both are members of the Eldar race, and nowhere does it say that units from Codex: Eldar may reroll failed saves. It says Eldar may reroll failed saves.

However you could easily target yourself with the power and since you are considered one unit...is the target Eldar...is Eldrad or a Farseer eldar? Yep. The unit is effected.

the new IC rules state that when a character joins a unit, they become part of that unit. Eldrad and the Farseer are considered to be models in the unit of grotesques. Grotesques are a dark eldar unit.

An archon who joins a unit of wraithguard, conversly, is considered to be an eldar unit.

Because fortune tells you to target a unit, not a model, it cannot be specifically target at an individual model within a unit, but rather targets the unit as a whole.

+1. A dark eldar unit can never benefit from fortune/guide. An arch on in an eldar unit can.

Furthermore, You can NOT do the example posted in the other thread that was linked previously in the thread. The rules on page 39 under Independent Characters and Ongoing Effects covers the topic.
I'm not sure where the confusion started, but wanted to nip this before too many people go lead down the wrong path.

Here are a couple of examples of how it would work
---
Example 1
an Eldar Farseer and a unit of Dark Eldar
Farseer is by himself (not attached at this point)
Farseer casts fortune on himself
Farseer move and attaches to the Dark Eldar Unit
the Farseer keeps the benifits of fortune, the Dark Eldar unit however, does not gain the benifits as per the noted section of the BRB stated above.
---
Example 2
An Eldar unit, with a Farseer and a Dark Eldar HQ
All models are attached to eachother and in one unit
Farseer casts Fortune on the Eldar unit
All models in the unit now gain the benifits of fortune as per the rules on page 39 of the BRB.

I'm in a lengthy debate with someone in another forum.

He/she claim the term 'Eldar' is race specific and that Dark Eldar is Eldar.

What says everyone else?

Eldar are not dark eldar and vise versa. Following his logic Is purely a lore debate and not rules as written or intended.

As much as I would like to have my wyches with reroll saves and guided ravangers...it is just incorrect.

SabrX wrote:I'm in a lengthy debate with someone in another forum.

He/she claim the term 'Eldar' is race specific and that Dark Eldar is Eldar.

What says everyone else?

Lore and rules are as often separate as they are the same, but even though i didn't stick around in the other thread long enough to see it get locked i imagine this line of debate is what turned into a flame war. Go over the issue with you're content prior to generating powers and at him like he's a ufo if he doesn't let battle brothers get affected by fortune. :p

Actually this topic came up in BA IC receiving IG orders. THe argument is that since Dark Eldar are Eldar (fluff-wise) and fluff=rules, Dark Eldar = Eldar.

I disagree completely.

This is splitting hairs.

Grotesques are generally Dark Eldar. Normally would mean 50% or better. Exclusively would be 100%. I'm not sure what kind of percentage generally is, 35%, 40%?

So you can't call all Grotesques Dark Eldar so the power would not work on the unit. It would be like saying works on all Tau, but that doesn't include Kroot or Vespic even though they are in the Tau Codex.

SabrX wrote:I'm in a lengthy debate with someone in another forum.

He/she claim the term 'Eldar' is race specific and that Dark Eldar is Eldar.

What says everyone else?

No, this is bringing fluff t the realm of rules.

Happyjew wrote:Actually this topic came up in BA IC receiving IG orders. THe argument is that since Dark Eldar are Eldar (fluff-wise) and fluff=rules, Dark Eldar = Eldar.

I disagree completely.

As both a player of eldar and dark eldar, I would love having my reroll 4++ wyches, or twin linked ravangers... or while we're at it my boat flying at you full of haywire groups with a 4+ re-rollable cover save.
However, This in fact is incorrect and not allowed.

In the above situation, the important things to note are:
The Imperial guard FAQ specifically states orders can only be given to Codex: Imperial Guard.
The only reason and way the BA IC would benifit from the order is if he was/is attached the the unit at the time it was given the order per the IC rules in the BRB on page 39.

Taking a look at the Eldar:
The Codex: Eldar powers specifically states Eldar units... not "those of the eldar race"
Now if you want to argue that Dark Eldar are Eldar and vise versa, please explain to me why Vect has prefered enemy against Dark Eldar, and then Eldar also...
Its like trying to argue that artillery units are infantry units because they are "fluff" wise infantry with artillery guns and therefor both artillery and infantry... anyone who is trying to argue for this is just trying to cheat.


Edit: Typo

I think the statement that Eldar = Dark Eldar is in a similar fashion to Blood Angels = Space Marines. If they are the same, then the BA can take the new Stormtalon, no?

The Vect rules give a clear example. Vect having preferred enemy against Eldar, AND separately against Dark Eldar makes it blatantly clear, even if it wasn't obvious.

Mannahnin wrote:The Vect rules give a clear example. Vect having preferred enemy against Eldar, AND separately against Dark Eldar makes it blatantly clear, even if it wasn't obvious.

Thats my point...they are different

Like I said, I never agreed that Dark Eldar = Eldar. I'm actually the one arguing against it in that thread.

Happyjew wrote:Like I said, I never agreed that Dark Eldar = Eldar. I'm actually the one arguing against it in that thread.

We are in agreement, my post was for all of those who disagree with us and how silly they make themselves look being wrong

If a Farseer and an Archon join together to form a unit does it count as an Eldar or Dark Eldar unit?

greatergoodjones wrote:If a Farseer and an Archon join together to form a unit does it count as an Eldar or Dark Eldar unit?

Since that's a 50/50 split and there isn't realy a base unit that anything is joining on to, I'd say you'd be good to Fortune or Guide that unit.

The situation the OP brought up, though, not so much. You're right, Eldar =/= Dark Eldar.

greatergoodjones wrote:If a Farseer and an Archon join together to form a unit does it count as an Eldar or Dark Eldar unit?

It is not as grey as you think.
Each character acts as a unit of their codex.

So farseer(eldar unit) archon (dark eldar unit).
The question depends on which you attach to the other as they become the other unit type.
As such:
A farseer attaches to archon. It is now a dark eldar unit.
A archon attaches to farseer. It is now a eldar unit.

Keep in mind this is important for not only unit deployment but benificial abilities also.

If the Archon attached to the Farseer's unit; the unit can:
Able to use Eldar psychic powers targeting the unit.
Can enter eldar transports

If the Farseer attached to the Archon's unit.
Unable to use Eldar psychic powers targeting the unit.
Can enter dark eldar transports

*note* you can not join and leave a unit in the same turn so if you deploy them together you must declare which is attached to the other and it will follow those rules in the start of the game.

Edit 1: typo correction
Edit 2: clarification on the two units
Edit 3: fixed typo while rewriting the clarification.

Redenzione wrote:

greatergoodjones wrote:If a Farseer and an Archon join together to form a unit does it count as an Eldar or Dark Eldar unit?

It is not as grey as you think.
Each character acts as a unit of their codex.

So farseer(eldar unit) archon (dark eldar unit).
The question depends on which you attach to the other as they become the other unit type.
As such:
A farseer attaches to archon. It is now a dark eldar unit.
A archon attaches to farseer. It is now a eldar unit.

Keep in mind this is important for not only unit deployment but benificial abilities also.

As such:
A farseer attached to the archon.
Benifit from eldar psychic powers
Can enter eldar transports

A archon attached to the farseer.
No use of codex:eldar powers targeting the unit
Can enter dark eldar transports

*note* you can not join and leave a unit in the same turn so if you deploy them together you must declare which is attached to the other and it will follow those rules in the start of the game.

I wasn't trying to imply it was grey. I simply had no idea what it would be considered. Can I take it that what you are saying is that the player gets to pick which it is, but once he makes that decision he is stuck with it as long as they form that unit?

Mannahnin wrote:The Vect rules give a clear example. Vect having preferred enemy against Eldar, AND separately against Dark Eldar makes it blatantly clear, even if it wasn't obvious.

Thanks for pointing this out. Case closed on my lengthy debate.

They can seperate and reform, but it would take 2 turns to do so. (i.e. one to leave eachother, and the other to rejoin)
If in deployment you pick which is attached to the other.
In movement phase it is whichever moves withen the 2" unit requirement per the joining and leaving units section on page 39 of the BRB.
Just note the previous requirement for I mentioned for powers and transport allowances


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SabrX wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:The Vect rules give a clear example. Vect having preferred enemy against Eldar, AND separately against Dark Eldar makes it blatantly clear, even if it wasn't obvious.

Thanks for pointing this out. Case closed on my lengthy debate.

Glad we could help, Its good to see that your debate was resolved. I suppose its safe to assume your opponent couldn't justify against vect.