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Which list do you like better and think is more balanced? Comments and critics are welcome

LIST A
Alternative ork 1750pts

HQ: 200
Warboss (pk, bosspole, eavy armour, attack squig): 120
Kff big mek: 85

ELITE: 345
7x loota: 105
8x loota: 120
8x loota: 120

TROOPS: 910
6xnobz (painboy, 6xcb, pk, 4x big choppa): 225
30x boyz (nob, pk): 215
30x boyz (nob, pk): 215
30x boyz (nob, pk): 215
Gretchins: 40

FAST ATTACK: 290
3x deffkopta (3x tl rokkit, buzzsaw): 160
Dakkajet ( tl super shotta, ace pilot): 130

TOTAL: 1745

LIST B
HQ: 310
Thrakka: 225
KFF big mek: 85

TROOPS: 671
5x nobz (painboy, waaghbanner, 3x bc, 5xcyberbody, 1xPK): 210
+dedicated bw : 115
18x boyz (nob, pk, bosspole, eavy arm): 153
18x boyz (nob, pk, bosspole, eavy arm): 153
10x gretchin: 40

ELITE: 210
7x loota: 105
7x loota: 105

FA: 320
3x deffkopta (3x rokkit, buzz): 160
3x deffkopta (3x rokkit, buzz): 160

HEAVY: 210
Battlewagon (deffrola, bs): 115
Battlewagon (deffrola, bs): 115

TOTAL: 1746

Would apriciate some feedback

I never take bosspoles in any Ork army makeup. It never applies until you are under 11 models and at that point you can't really lose models to attempt to make a fairly poor chance to make the morale anyway.
List A might do fairly well as long as you can get some decent cover. he problem is that the KFF is not decent cover. I would probably drop a dakkajet to beef up the loots squads a bit.

List B is going to have trouble unless you have decent cover because vehicles are too easily destroyed in this edition and even with 4 HP BWs won't do well without cover. Although I primarily have played Tau in 6E so my opinion of vehicles may be tainted.

I am guessing you are going to us the gretchin to hold objectives but with that number they could easily run after a single template/unit's shooting.

While Ghaz is still probably one of the coolest ork models ever released, his stat line and load out no longer make him worth his points especially with the nerf to his Waaagh.

Your lists are so last edition. Actually I dislike your second list anyway.

Looking at your first list:
deffkoptas and nobs. koptas are run away too easily and can not assault from outflank or scout, then nobs do not work so well foot slogging.

So other options:
warboss on a bike can make koptas well behaved.
Nobs on bikes, can be their own bosses and can choose their target and can shoot stuff.
Else drop them both for one more squad of grots just in case and then get more lootas.

I voted neither.

The big thing for me was the way you kitted your Deffkoptas.

- Orks thrive in cheap, plentiful units. A Deffkopta with a TL Rokkit Launcha and Buzzsaw isn't cheap. Especially lots of them.

- If you outflank them, like I do, then you just need the rokkits. Besides, you can't assault on the turn you come in from reserve anyway. A 45 point T5 4+ beast is awesome. A 70 point T5 4+ beast is less awesome.

- Don't forget that they're jetbikes, so those cool rules apply as well.

You can't have a squad of 40 gretchin.

Ghazghkull got hit in the face with the nerf-bat with the changes to fleet. He's really pricy for doing the same things a mega-armored Warboss can do.

Give your Battlewagons more dakka. They can snapfire. 4 Big Shootas and maybe a Kannon (NOT! A KILKANNON!)(S8 is always nice).

You've got 6 Nobz and they're as pricy as a mob of 30 boyz., but have only slightly better survivability.

Give Shootas/Big Shootas to da boyz and let them excel in 6th edition.

Ok, so made some changes to List A... Dropped one dakkajet for another loota squad and dropped bosspoles on boyz... Is this more viable?

As for list B, I will drop one koptas squad which will free me 160pts and eavy armour for extra 10pts... What I am thinking of is either:

a) 12 boyz + pk nob in trukk (142 pts) + add 1 loota to each squad (30pts)

b) dakkajet (130) + add 1 loota to each squad

c) another squad of 8x lootas (120) + one loota in each squad (30)

What would be better? I feel I need more boyz, but then again some firepower would do well too...

As for all who argue against battlewagon orks, here are few of my personal thoughts and experiences:

1) Thrakka may be nerfed, but he is still the toughest son of a mother duck in entire wh40k... He can stand 1v1 against any HQ (where regular warboss is quite in danger of being single shoted from force weapons or S10 or simply from # of attacks before it is his time to strike back)....

2) yes, vehicles are nerfed in 6th, but battle wagons are even tougher... Bear in mind, no glancing hit can single-shot battlewagon... Instead you need 4 of them... And in 5th, 4 glancings would wreck the hell out of them anyway... survivability against common weapons has increased too, for no longer can AP higher than 2 destroy you with 50% chance...
As for cover of mek, I agree it is nerfed... but I never had much luck with it anyhow... Still wagons are tough enough...
Then there is assault change and waagh... With wagons, you would move 12" first round, then 12" next, disembark 2", had 1" base out, ran 6" (thrakka) and charged 6" which is total of 39" (and with usually 36" from wagon to end of table more than enough... Now you have 18" first round (which is imo great for even if you lose wagon, your orks are 21" closer (with 3" disembark)) 6" next round, 6" move and 2-12 inch charge (usually 7") which is total of 32"-42" (average 37"), and with waagh it is usually much better yet always enough... So these changes work only for better...
Next, one important thing is that there is 50% chance of nightfighting!!!! That is 3+ save for your wagons first turn!!!! It is such a buff that it hurts!
Yet one biggest problem imo is new explosion rules on open topped ( i could be wrong but i don't think so) since no loger open topped do S3 hits on embarked models....
All in all, I do not see wagon spam to be useless in 6th or not competitive...

As for nobz, i was suprised how resistant they were... With look out sir and thrakka charging in front (no more 3d6 slow and purposeful), unit made of characters is dangerous one indeed... Not to mention, you can totally abuse challenges now
It is expensive, i know, yet they always give back their pts (or at least in every game till now in 6th from my experience)... Though it is so, I never tried it footy, so until I try it, I won't know...

I know it is an essay I wrote in last post, but would really be nice if you guys gave me few comments and critics about those three possibilities for changing list B into more competitive one...
thx

Dr. What wrote:I voted neither.

The big thing for me was the way you kitted your Deffkoptas.

- Orks thrive in cheap, plentiful units. A Deffkopta with a TL Rokkit Launcha and Buzzsaw isn't cheap. Especially lots of them.

- If you outflank them, like I do, then you just need the rokkits. Besides, you can't assault on the turn you come in from reserve anyway. A 45 point T5 4+ beast is awesome. A 70 point T5 4+ beast is less awesome.

- Don't forget that they're jetbikes, so those cool rules apply as well.

You can't have a squad of 40 gretchin.

Ghazghkull got hit in the face with the nerf-bat with the changes to fleet. He's really pricy for doing the same things a mega-armored Warboss can do.

Give your Battlewagons more dakka. They can snapfire. 4 Big Shootas and maybe a Kannon (NOT! A KILKANNON!)(S8 is always nice).

You've got 6 Nobz and they're as pricy as a mob of 30 boyz., but have only slightly better survivability.

Give Shootas/Big Shootas to da boyz and let them excel in 6th edition.

Only one deffkopta has buzzsaw, and it worked wonders for me... They don't charge turn the arrive, true, yet they are far more dangerous squad if left unattended... And with 6w, 4+/5++ and T5, it is not as easy as it looks to take them out... If buzzsaw kopta survives, next turn he will charge a vehicle, and with HoW there is free S7 AP2 hit on I10, with 3 more attacks that hit on 3+... It wrecks down vehicles (especially if you shoot it first)... Although must say I don't need two squads, therefor will drop one ( but still pondering for what... Perhaps dakkajet)...

There are 10 gretchins, not 40, used to sit on single objective out of los (pretty easy with new rules)...

I know what you mean of nobz, and I am thinking of dropping it too (in list A that is) but will at least once or twice test it....

Dakka on wagon is no go, with bs 2 I don't want to spend useless pts which could be spent more efficiently...

Problem with shoota boyz is that I have over hundred slugga boyz and not a single shoota... So that is out of question




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dr. What wrote:I voted neither.

The big thing for me was the way you kitted your Deffkoptas.

- Orks thrive in cheap, plentiful units. A Deffkopta with a TL Rokkit Launcha and Buzzsaw isn't cheap. Especially lots of them.

- If you outflank them, like I do, then you just need the rokkits. Besides, you can't assault on the turn you come in from reserve anyway. A 45 point T5 4+ beast is awesome. A 70 point T5 4+ beast is less awesome.

- Don't forget that they're jetbikes, so those cool rules apply as well.

You can't have a squad of 40 gretchin.

Ghazghkull got hit in the face with the nerf-bat with the changes to fleet. He's really pricy for doing the same things a mega-armored Warboss can do.

Give your Battlewagons more dakka. They can snapfire. 4 Big Shootas and maybe a Kannon (NOT! A KILKANNON!)(S8 is always nice).

You've got 6 Nobz and they're as pricy as a mob of 30 boyz., but have only slightly better survivability.

Give Shootas/Big Shootas to da boyz and let them excel in 6th edition.

Only one deffkopta has buzzsaw, and it worked wonders for me... They don't charge turn the arrive, true, yet they are far more dangerous squad if left unattended... And with 6w, 4+/5++ and T5, it is not as easy as it looks to take them out... If buzzsaw kopta survives, next turn he will charge a vehicle, and with HoW there is free S7 AP2 hit on I10, with 3 more attacks that hit on 3+... It wrecks down vehicles (especially if you shoot it first)... Although must say I don't need two squads, therefor will drop one ( but still pondering for what... Perhaps dakkajet)...

There are 10 gretchins, not 40, used to sit on single objective out of los (pretty easy with new rules)...

I know what you mean of nobz, and I am thinking of dropping it too (in list A that is) but will at least once or twice test it....

Dakka on wagon is no go, with bs 2 I don't want to spend useless pts which could be spent more efficiently...

Problem with shoota boyz is that I have over hundred slugga boyz and not a single shoota... So that is out of question


Automatically Appended Next Post:
P.S SRY FOR MY INTERNET CONNECTION.... I AM NOT AT HOME SO SOMETIMES IT SO SO SLOW THAT IT DOUBLE-POSTS MY POSTS:p

How about this change to list B:

HQ: 230
Warboss (PK, warbike, bosspole, attack squig): 145
Big mek w kff: 85

TROOPS: 724
4x nobz (4x bike, painboy, 4x cb, 1x pk, 2x bc): 265
20x boyz (nob, pk): 155
20x boyz (nob, pk): 155
19x boyz (nob, pk): 149

ELITES: 225
5x lootas: 75
5x lootas: 75
5x lootas: 75

FAST ATTACK: 225
Dakkajet (super shoota, ace pilot): 135
2x TL rokkit deffkopta: 90

HEAVY SUPPORT: 345
battlewagon (deffrola, big shoota): 115
battlewagon (deffrola, big shoota): 115
battlewagon (deffrola, big shoota): 115

TOTAL: 1749

I always take bosspoles on my big boyz squads - it greatly improves their chance of not doing a runner when they get down to low numbers (and some mobs are always going to be whittled down if the game is in any way close). They are a great buy at 5pts for keeping the most dangerous model in the mob around (the PK toting nob). And while he is still around, he can be a real thorn in your opponents side - particularly if he has any tanks in charge range. All you are losing is a six point boy to up your chance of keeping the rest of them in there - points well spent I think.

Keep those bosspoles!

4x nobz (4x bike, painboy, 4x cb, 1x pk, 2x bc): 265

Seems a bit small to me. I'd take a squad of 6 as a minimum.

DoomMouse wrote:I always take bosspoles on my big boyz squads - it greatly improves their chance of not doing a runner when they get down to low numbers (and some mobs are always going to be whittled down if the game is in any way close). They are a great buy at 5pts for keeping the most dangerous model in the mob around (the PK toting nob). And while he is still around, he can be a real thorn in your opponents side - particularly if he has any tanks in charge range. All you are losing is a six point boy to up your chance of keeping the rest of them in there - points well spent I think.

Keep those bosspoles!

I agree. The role of boyz is to go in there and lose models until they are no longer fearless as such not so much of a threat, hopefully they will have killed a fair bit and it will be about turn 4, at which point they have a second role which is stay alive and go to ground on an objective.
Your point about the squad still being dead killy if the PK nob is alive I agree to, I just have yet to fully get my head fully around tactics for challenges.

Basicaly, there are two things you would change:
1. Add a bosspole
2. Add more nobz

My question to you then is, where to find pts?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What about competitivness of the list? Is it now competitive? Could it challenge other armies?