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So 6e came along and shook a few things up. But did things change as much as people would have liked? The pancake edition had a few ideas that added tactical depth while still making sense, and I imagine there's more than a few who would have liked to see some of those.

So what crazy ideas would you liked to have seen in 6e, or maybe in 7e? Which parts of the game still annoy you and make no sense?
Here's some of mine:

Initiative

The current Initiative system is rather... odd to me. There's plenty of cases where assaults are totally one-sided thanks to this, with one sided getting wiped out without inflicting any damage back at all. For a grimdark universe like this it seems strange to me that entire squads can emerge from a combat completely unscatched, and that last resort suicide charges can be for nothing before a single dice is rolled.
A great example is to watch what happens when Genestealers roll into a larger number of Orks. It's quite plausible for those Orks to be wiped out completely by half their number without getting to strike a single blow in return, let alone kill anything. Orks may not be the quickest, but 20 of them should be able to kill something.

It would be nice to see a mechanic that lets 'dead' models attack back with a much-reduced effect, such as becoming WS1, losing special weapons and extra attacks, etc. This reflects the fact that while their opponent is quicker, some units will still be trying to damage them rather than standing around until the enemy has had their turn. At least then they'd be able to inflict some token damage as they go down fighting, and there would be some element of tactical depth in suiciding units when the situation called for it.
Very grimdark.

Reserves

I would have loved to see more options to assault from deep-strike / outflank. There should have been a tactical trade-off where you can assault on the turn you arrive, but with a penalty or two. Pancake edition had rules to let enemy units immediately shoot you if you land too close. Other possibilities are being able to overwatch at full BS, 1D6" charge distance, or losing any benefit from assault grenades for that turn. I think it would be a nice balance between assault and shooting where a lightning assault could pay off, or go horribly wrong if you land in just the wrong place.

Shooting

IMHO, the worst-implemented mechanic in this game is shooting. While realism isn't exactly a priority in a space wargame mainly designed to sell plastic crack to kids, it would be nice if they'd at least try. As things stand, an Ork is just as likely to hit a speeding bike on the other side of the board as it is to hit a stationary titan 2" away. As 40k has developed, they've tried to patch up this system - first with 'cover' saves for fast moving units and now with BS1 to hit all flyers.
The same issues apply here - an Ork armed with a rock and severe ADD has the same odds of hitting that flyer as a Space Marine Captain with a targeter. Conversely, a fast-moving jetbike has no protection from a single flamer because template weapons ignore the 'cover save' hack it gets to protect itself. Those flamer dudes must practice alot to hit every time they use it!

This may be controversial and such, but I really think the Evasion mechanic from Pancake edition was on the right track here. It should be very easy to hit that Land Raider bearing down on you. Elite units like Vindicare Assassins or Phoenix Lords absolutely should be able to use their significant BS skill to pick flyers or jetbikes out of the sky with ease as soon as those flyers came out. By properly scaling the accuracy of troops to the kind of target they're shooting at GW could have easily achieved better balance than having everyone sit around waiting for Skyfire to appear in their new codex.

your shooting part makes no sense....at all. cover saves for fast units is not 100% new, and and ork is much less likely to "hit" and by hit i assume you mean damage a titan than a bike.

flamers also make sense to ignore jink save since they just gout out in an area and dont require much accuracy. they just shoot ahead of the bike.

This edition really isnt that bad, its wierd, and the wound allocation is difficult, but it makes alot more sense than it used to and really shook everything up, which i like alot personally.

I actually think the shooting part makes the most sense. He doesn't mean damaging the titan, he means the shot actually hitting it. In the same way, I find that the rules on assaulting vehicles have become ridiculous. It is as easy to hit a land raider that has moved 1 inch as it is a vyper that has moved 12. And moving flat out in the shooting phase doesn't even change anything, so that same Vyper having moved 30" last turn is still hit on a 3+ in CC.

I would have liked tank shock to change a bit. Its just too easy for infantry units to just pass their leadership test and get out the way. I think that a dice should be rolled which determines whether the unit has time to get out of the way or not before the tank comes rumbling through them.

Similarly, I'm disappointed by the fact that 12" is the max movement for vehicles during their movement phase. With the implementation of snap shots or whatever they're called in English (the BS1 shots), the difference between say, the same vyper and landraider has been drastically reduced. Not to mention fast skimmers such as falcons can't do suicidal 24" ramming moves or tank shocks anymore, which is really just a shame.

I think the wound allocations are fine and make more sense in a realistic way. The closer models ge the hits. It may just lead to positioning for advantage though. Before, we had wound allocation and models removed in a special order for the best advantage. I prefer this new version where you can't do that.

Challenges seem neat, until you see that a character that issues a challenge can still have his normal attacks whilst the character that denied the challenge cannot. The BRB explanation being that the cowardly character is too busy avoiding the challenger, yet the challenger is attacking the unit...

I don't like the allies and foritifications rules. Allies I can deal with to an extent, because a good story to back it up can make the game interesting, but fortifications seem ridiculous, especially since all the GW terrain is Imperial and sometimes Chaos based. If you could at least hijack enemy fortifications by clearing out the troops inside...

I wish assault shooting weapons had gotten better rules, or rapid fire hadn't gotten so much better. Units with assault weapons are now pretty badly nerfed, seeing as most CC units will have two CC weapons anyway, like a pistol and sword.

That's all I can think of for now, but I may be back...

xttz wrote:So 6e came along and shook a few things up. But did things change as much as people would have liked? The pancake edition had a few ideas that added tactical depth while still making sense, and I imagine there's more than a few who would have liked to see some of those.

So what crazy ideas would you liked to have seen in 6e, or maybe in 7e? Which parts of the game still annoy you and make no sense?
Here's some of mine:

Initiative

The current Initiative system is rather... odd to me. There's plenty of cases where assaults are totally one-sided thanks to this, with one sided getting wiped out without inflicting any damage back at all. For a grimdark universe like this it seems strange to me that entire squads can emerge from a combat completely unscatched, and that last resort suicide charges can be for nothing before a single dice is rolled.
A great example is to watch what happens when Genestealers roll into a larger number of Orks. It's quite plausible for those Orks to be wiped out completely by half their number without getting to strike a single blow in return, let alone kill anything. Orks may not be the quickest, but 20 of them should be able to kill something.

It would be nice to see a mechanic that lets 'dead' models attack back with a much-reduced effect, such as becoming WS1, losing special weapons and extra attacks, etc. This reflects the fact that while their opponent is quicker, some units will still be trying to damage them rather than standing around until the enemy has had their turn. At least then they'd be able to inflict some token damage as they go down fighting, and there would be some element of tactical depth in suiciding units when the situation called for it.
Very grimdark.

Well, many units in this game very much lean heavily to one aspect. Dark Eldar Wyches and Khorne Berzerkers for example, are almost completely assault dedicated units. They have little to no functionality combat wise past that. In the mean time, Tau Fire Warriors and Imperial Guard Veterans are the oposite. Shooting dedicated units with no business being in assault. What does this have to do with anything? The way you are describing would mean that a player would gain full functionality with a shooting based unit for several turns, while the assault unit is still moving up, maybe losing a couple models here or there. Then when those Berzerkers or Wyches finally charge and slaughter the shooting unit, they can then be killed back. What does this mean? It means that units like the Veterans or Fire Warriors would get a lot better, and Berzerkers and Wyches a bit worse. In addition to that, if every unit was knocked down to WS 1, then units like conscripts hit the same as a unit of terminators. Which doesn't quite seem right.

And what about special characters? As it is, a special character like Lilith or Abbadon can wreck whole squads. And rightly so. It is the 41st Millenium after all. It's not too far fetch to think of an individual as being able to gut a squad of humans before they can even respond. Initiative is exactly what it sounds like. Two warriors fighting, and one is able to detect weak spot, times to strike, etc. faster and more efficiently than another.

Honestly, Initiative is one of the last things I would change if I changed anything at all.

xttz wrote:Reserves

I would have loved to see more options to assault from deep-strike / outflank. There should have been a tactical trade-off where you can assault on the turn you arrive, but with a penalty or two. Pancake edition had rules to let enemy units immediately shoot you if you land too close. Other possibilities are being able to overwatch at full BS, 1D6" charge distance, or losing any benefit from assault grenades for that turn. I think it would be a nice balance between assault and shooting where a lightning assault could pay off, or go horribly wrong if you land in just the wrong place.

I will agree with you on this one. I would have liked to see some sort of penalty perhaps instead of downright not being able to charge from all reserves. You couldn't charge after a deepstrike last edition, so that is the same. But units like Rough Riders and Raider Wych squads took a little bit of a hit.

xttz wrote:Shooting

IMHO, the worst-implemented mechanic in this game is shooting. While realism isn't exactly a priority in a space wargame mainly designed to sell plastic crack to kids, it would be nice if they'd at least try. As things stand, an Ork is just as likely to hit a speeding bike on the other side of the board as it is to hit a stationary titan 2" away. As 40k has developed, they've tried to patch up this system - first with 'cover' saves for fast moving units and now with BS1 to hit all flyers.
The same issues apply here - an Ork armed with a rock and severe ADD has the same odds of hitting that flyer as a Space Marine Captain with a targeter. Conversely, a fast-moving jetbike has no protection from a single flamer because template weapons ignore the 'cover save' hack it gets to protect itself. Those flamer dudes must practice alot to hit every time they use it!

This may be controversial and such, but I really think the Evasion mechanic from Pancake edition was on the right track here. It should be very easy to hit that Land Raider bearing down on you. Elite units like Vindicare Assassins or Phoenix Lords absolutely should be able to use their significant BS skill to pick flyers or jetbikes out of the sky with ease as soon as those flyers came out. By properly scaling the accuracy of troops to the kind of target they're shooting at GW could have easily achieved better balance than having everyone sit around waiting for Skyfire to appear in their new codex.

The rules for Shooting in this game is terrible. But it's better than anything else they can come up with. So I'll take that as a plus. And the new wound allocation is much better and more realistic. In reality, with wound allocation and true line of sight, shooting is pretty realistic.

Initiative makes sense the way it is now, it's a bit rock-paper-scissors, but it's a bit more gamey this way, and I like it. The high I units are usually having to pay the price elsewhere, wyches for example have pathetic S, T and armour save.

Reserve assaults might be nice if it's like a special rule for dedicated deep strike assault units, it still makes no sense to me that genestealers can't assault on the turn they outflank, they caught the enemy by surprise, they should be allowed to do whatever the hell they want!

No comment on shooting, so I'd just agree with the others.

If anything, I'd like the WS table to change, BS9 gives us 2+/3+, while with WS9, we still hit on 3+ and get hit on 5+, the "rewards" for having high skill just aren't balanced! Have you ever tried punching a pro boxer? I assume everyone punch boxers regularly, like a daily routine, but anyway, you wouldn't be able to land a punch unless they let you, right? Now what happen when they try to hit you? They'd land their punch 100% of the time! And it makes no sense that a WS1 character has the same chance at hitting a WS9 character as a WS4(a highly trained SM, 40k's average military WS).

So when the gap is that big, the least they could do is make it 2+ to hit, and 6 to be hitted... :(

I agree on weapon skill needing to be more of a difference... gretchin or killa kans at ws 2... they should not be able to hit an avatar at ws 10... i imagine him parrying some hits then turning some kanz into a shichkabob... same with space marines... he's a big mean nasty who can only ac tup close and he shoudl be a high priority target for shooting because he'd be that good if he got in an assault.

one rule i really wish was true was the rules for who goes first... it feels that the person who wins that all important roll off gets a huge bonus being able to shoot and/or assault before the other person. i'd have liked to see a bidding system where you either surrender a certain numebr of points in your list to go first or the opponent gets that many more points in thier list to add before turn 1. obviously there would be no chance to steal initiative on this though

I agree that shooting accuracy should scale over distance,

and I also think that hull points are the -dumbest- most -unrealistic- mechanic conceivable compared to the brilliant idea of randomized damage tables in 5th edition.

I'd like some way to shoot into assaults. I'd even settle for "all wounds are resolved against your own men until they are all dead, and only THEN do any wounds hit the enemy," but being unable to shoot a mob of genestealers when I have one lonely soldier still in assault with them just breaks my heart. I understand that they dont do this to keep the game balanced, otherwise assault based armies would be hosed, but I still feel that heartbreak.

Ignatius wrote:

xttz wrote:Shooting

IMHO, the worst-implemented mechanic in this game is shooting. While realism isn't exactly a priority in a space wargame mainly designed to sell plastic crack to kids, it would be nice if they'd at least try. As things stand, an Ork is just as likely to hit a speeding bike on the other side of the board as it is to hit a stationary titan 2" away. As 40k has developed, they've tried to patch up this system - first with 'cover' saves for fast moving units and now with BS1 to hit all flyers.
The same issues apply here - an Ork armed with a rock and severe ADD has the same odds of hitting that flyer as a Space Marine Captain with a targeter. Conversely, a fast-moving jetbike has no protection from a single flamer because template weapons ignore the 'cover save' hack it gets to protect itself. Those flamer dudes must practice alot to hit every time they use it!

This may be controversial and such, but I really think the Evasion mechanic from Pancake edition was on the right track here. It should be very easy to hit that Land Raider bearing down on you. Elite units like Vindicare Assassins or Phoenix Lords absolutely should be able to use their significant BS skill to pick flyers or jetbikes out of the sky with ease as soon as those flyers came out. By properly scaling the accuracy of troops to the kind of target they're shooting at GW could have easily achieved better balance than having everyone sit around waiting for Skyfire to appear in their new codex.

The rules for Shooting in this game is terrible.

AGREE

Ignatius wrote:But it's better than anything else they can come up with.

DISAGREE
The problem is still the same as it's been since 2001.

NO MODIFIERS

I got my hopes up for 6th when the rumours came out that they were bringing back modifiers.
But alas, no

The really stupid thing is that:
a) they have them in WHFB
b) they have them in 40K for stuff like combat resolution

People keep telling me it's because GW targets 40K at little kids and apparently 4(to hit)+1(cover) is too hard to work out.
But:
a) They still have to add up their army list (IG BlobSquad X pts = 3x(50+5(meltabomb)+35(commisar)+(2x10(powerweapons))+10(meltagun)+10(autocannon))
b) They still have to work out many other modifiers like Combat Resolution ((SM unsaved wounds = 3(ID) + 2(ID) + 7)-(IG unsaved wounds = 8) = 12-8=4.... Ld test is Ld8-4 so I need to get 4 or less on 2D6
Neither of these examples are the most complicated thing a player will ever have to work out.

While we're at it... saving throw modifiers for weapon AP.

Shooting Krak Missile at SM PowerArmour / Terminator - In 2nd Ed
Krak Missile - S8 , -5Save
PowerArmour = 3+.... -5 requires 8 on 1 D6... can't do it
Terminator = 3+..........-5 requires 8 on 2 D6... about 45% chance

Shooting Krak Missile at SM PowerArmour / Terminator - In 3/4/5/6th Ed
Krak Missile - S8 , AP3
PowerArmour = 3+.... AP3..... can't do it
Terminator = 2+..........AP3...... about 87% chance

More specifically...... ¿¡ANTI TANK MISSILES HAVE NO EFFECT!?


Just like......

Space Marine standing behind a wall while another Space Marine shoots a bolter at him - In 2nd Ed
Hard Cover = -2 to hit .... Space Marine BS4 requires 3+2 = 5 to hit..... 33% chance to hit, down from 67% chance if he's not in cover

Tactical use of cover has already doubled the Space Marine's chance of survival (as one might expect)


Space Marine standing behind a wall while another Space Marine shoots a bolter at him - In 3/4/5/6th Ed
Space Marine BS4 requires 3 to hit..... 67% chance

Cover makes no difference when rolling to hit as it's now used as armour
except that......
Only one Armour Save
AP of bolter is 5 - doesnt ignore power armour so best save is used and the cover is ignored again and hasn't made any difference at all to the chance of getting hit or saving from armour

The main things is..... ¿¡HIDING BEHIND A CERAMITE BUNKER DOES NOTHING!?


Now I might be able to find this more acceptable if they'd never had a better system.... but they did

I would have liked them to do a complete rework of the the game, espeicallt the way units work in the game. 40k is too big for the "one model' one roll" mechanic these days - there should be real "focused fire", to speed up the game. I would also like them to scrap the random movement rules (not only charges) and return differentiated movement rates. The vehicle rules also need a doing-over: vehicles have not worked well in 40k in any edition. Although that is a pipe dream, the D6+1-10 stat lines also needs a severe do-over. it has never made an sense.

And an actual tightening up of the wording. 6th might show a slight improvement, but they've got a long way to go, as the myriad debates show.