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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/12 18:55:19
Subject: Castellan Crowe - Rending Cleansing Flame?
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver
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Came up in another thread, and i did see it had it's own yet so i figured i'd make one since i was curious.
Does mr. Crowe's 'Cleansing Flame' psychic power benefit from his 'Master Swordsman' rule?
As per the GK FAQ the flames count as a "Close Combat Attack'
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/12 18:56:50
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/12 19:05:19
Subject: Castellan Crowe - Rending Cleansing Flame?
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Neophyte undergoing Ritual of Detestation
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The answer is no.
There's a very logical and well formed reason around as to why that I can't reproduce off hand, but it has to do with the fact that cleansing flame simply causes wounds to occur on a 4+ but is not in and of itself a "roll to wound".
There's more elegance to it than that, but the nutshell is, to rend, one requires a "roll to wound of a 6", but cleansing flame is not a "roll to wound" but rather a special ability that causes wounds on a 4+.
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Neil Gilstrap
Co-Founder of Chronicles
http://www.chroniclesthegame.com |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/12 19:10:11
Subject: Castellan Crowe - Rending Cleansing Flame?
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Agile Revenant Titan
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ngilstrap wrote:The answer is no.
There's a very logical and well formed reason around as to why that I can't reproduce off hand, but it has to do with the fact that cleansing flame simply causes wounds to occur on a 4+ but is not in and of itself a "roll to wound".
There's more elegance to it than that, but the nutshell is, to rend, one requires a "roll to wound of a 6", but cleansing flame is not a "roll to wound" but rather a special ability that causes wounds on a 4+.
Because Crowe rends "on a To Wound roll of 4+"
With Cleansing Flame you are not making a "To Wound roll" against a model, you are making a roll to wound that model. The two may seem the same, but are very different things under the rules.
Hit it on the head.
Iranna.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/12 19:13:18
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/12 19:18:07
Subject: Re:Castellan Crowe - Rending Cleansing Flame?
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver
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Can anyone quote what rules-text specifies what a 'To Wound Roll' is, or at least how it is different from "suffering one wound on a roll of 4+"?
I'm definately interesting in finding out the elegant reason alluded to above for why they are different enough to not be compatible.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/07/12 22:52:43
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/12 19:19:38
Subject: Castellan Crowe - Rending Cleansing Flame?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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A To Wound roll is a comparison of Strength vs Toughness. Some weapons/special rules get around this such as sniper weapons and poison weapons, both of which generally wound on a To Wound roll of 4+.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/12 19:21:26
Subject: Re:Castellan Crowe - Rending Cleansing Flame?
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Agile Revenant Titan
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Neorealist wrote:Can anyone quote what rules-text specifies what a 'To Wound Roll' is, or at least how it is different from "suffering one wound on a roll of 4+"?
Well, a To Wound roll (notice capitalisation) is usually made after a To Hit roll.
"Suffering one wound on a roll of 4+" is an effect which inflicts a wound on a model on a 4+
The mechanics of the two are very different, despite the end result being the same; that being the model suffering a wound.
Iranna.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/12 19:36:26
Subject: Re:Castellan Crowe - Rending Cleansing Flame?
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver
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indeed, my question is what is the difference between rolling a die to determine if the model is wounded (in this case on a 4+), and... rolling a die 'To Wound' a model on a 4+?
They are worded differently to be sure, but they appear functionally identical.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/12 19:39:11
Subject: Castellan Crowe - Rending Cleansing Flame?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Because Rending calls for a To Wound roll to take place, and on a 6 it has its effects. Clensing Flame is not a To Wound roll. (They are functionally identical in that models are wounded on a 4+ roll, but you can rend with a To Wound roll, you can not rend with something that does not roll a To Wound roll).
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/12 19:40:16
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/12 19:41:09
Subject: Re:Castellan Crowe - Rending Cleansing Flame?
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Paramount Plague Censer Bearer
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Would this have any bearing on this issue? But, isnt it HIS SWORD that rends on a 4+ and NOT neccesarily Crowe himself? If this is the case how could a wall of flame created from his brain gain a special rule from the sword he holds in his hand?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/12 19:42:22
Subject: Castellan Crowe - Rending Cleansing Flame?
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Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets
Right behind you...
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DeathReaper wrote:Because Rending calls for a To Wound roll to take place, and on a 6 it has its effects.
Clensing Flame is not a To Wound roll.
Wow, I didn't think you could split hairs that fine... Where did you get that 'electron microscope laserbeam of hairsplitting'?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/12 19:43:54
Subject: Re:Castellan Crowe - Rending Cleansing Flame?
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Novice Knight Errant Pilot
Stockholm Forge District; Skandian Hive Collectives
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Nope, it only counts as a close combat weapon. The special rule 'Master Swordsman' regulates that crowe's clos combat attacks rends on a 4+.
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I have a little hobby-thread going in the P&M section. Some say it's the best blog on Dakka, some don't agree, most belive it would be better if I finished at least one project some time this century and not just kept starting new ones.
Check it out, you just might like it.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/385168.page |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/12 19:44:08
Subject: Castellan Crowe - Rending Cleansing Flame?
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Agile Revenant Titan
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Beast wrote:
Wow, I didn't think you could split hairs that fine... Where did you get that 'electron microscope laserbeam of hairsplitting'?
It's not "splitting hairs" at all.
a To Wound roll and rolling to wound are completely different things under the rules.
Iranna.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/12 19:44:32
Subject: Castellan Crowe - Rending Cleansing Flame?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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You have to special order it from Games-Workshop. It's also very hand when you have a shooting attack that uses a line.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/12 19:44:51
Subject: Re:Castellan Crowe - Rending Cleansing Flame?
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Paramount Plague Censer Bearer
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No no no Its a Hairsplitting Laserbeam Microscope of Electrons, there is A HUGE differeance and I think we need a 20 page thread on the finer points of it!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/12 19:46:14
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/12 19:48:44
Subject: Castellan Crowe - Rending Cleansing Flame?
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Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets
Right behind you...
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Iranna wrote:Beast wrote:
Wow, I didn't think you could split hairs that fine... Where did you get that 'electron microscope laserbeam of hairsplitting'?
It's not "splitting hairs" at all.
a To Wound roll and rolling to wound are completely different things under the rules.
Iranna.
Yeah the way you just worded it is that one is a noun and one is a verb. Both have everything to do with determining whether a specific die roll will wound something...
edit- sucky spelling
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/12 19:49:59
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/12 19:51:23
Subject: Castellan Crowe - Rending Cleansing Flame?
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Agile Revenant Titan
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Beast wrote:
Yeah the way you just worded it is that one is a noun and one is a verb. Both have everything to do with determining whether a specific die roll will wound something...
edit- sucky spelling
Like a said, the end outcome is the same but the mechanics are different.
Therefore, they are different things.
Iranna.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/12 19:57:58
Subject: Castellan Crowe - Rending Cleansing Flame?
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Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets
Right behind you...
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Iranna wrote:Beast wrote:
Yeah the way you just worded it is that one is a noun and one is a verb. Both have everything to do with determining whether a specific die roll will wound something...
edit- sucky spelling
Like a said, the end outcome is the same but the mechanics are different.
Therefore, they are different things.
Iranna.
I don't necessarily think he should get rending cleansing flame either, but that justification is pretty thin...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/12 20:14:12
Subject: Castellan Crowe - Rending Cleansing Flame?
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Angered Reaver Arena Champion
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Beast wrote:I don't necessarily think he should get rending cleansing flame either, but that justification is pretty thin...
Seems legit to me. A different arrangement of words denotes a different meaning, this should not be news.
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Sangfroid Marines 5000 pts
Wych Cult 2000
Tau 2000 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/12 21:58:33
Subject: Castellan Crowe - Rending Cleansing Flame?
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver
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Dracos wrote:Seems legit to me. A different arrangement of words denotes a different meaning, this should not be news.
Interestingly enough, in this case they both mean the same thing or at least have the same result. (well, apart from conferring the rending USR or not, as per the debate above)
I wonder if there really 'is' specific rules support for treating a 'To Wound' roll any differently from any other kind of roll which results in wounds being applied to the model?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/12 21:58:42
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/12 22:12:55
Subject: Castellan Crowe - Rending Cleansing Flame?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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The Language itself is specific rules support for treating a 'To Wound' roll any differently.
A To Wound roll is not the same as a roll that causes a wound on a set number.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/12 22:21:00
Subject: Re:Castellan Crowe - Rending Cleansing Flame?
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver
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I'd like to note that there is precident for treating similar rule terms as meaning the same thing. The Necron FAQ contains the following:
Newcron FAQ:
Q: Does Writing Worldscape cause every model moving through difficult terrain, moving as in difficult terrain and counting as moving through difficult terrtain to take a Dangerous Terrain test?
A: Yes.
Wording on ability being referenced:
"...All difficult terrain is also dangerous for the enemy..."
I realize the above does not apply to Crowe specifically, but it does provide a published example of how GW treats similar terms like 'as in' 'counts as' and 'is' as the same thing rules-wise.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/12 22:43:46
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/12 22:34:37
Subject: Castellan Crowe - Rending Cleansing Flame?
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The Hive Mind
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Yea, "counts as" is the same thing as "is".
That has nothing to do with a roll that causes a wound vs a T Wound roll.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/13 01:46:44
Subject: Castellan Crowe - Rending Cleansing Flame?
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Member of the Malleus
SLC, UT
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So if a "to wound roll" is different than "wound on a roll of" and there for "wound on a roll of" does not cause rending... please explain snipers.
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"Huddle close to your Emperor if he makes you feel safe. He cannot save you, for only Chaos is eternal."
Cross: Noun. A thing you nail people to.
Iron Warriors 3k Yme-Loc 6k
Grey Knights 2k <3 Harlequin WIP
Vampire Counts 3K Dwarfs 2k
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/13 02:03:20
Subject: Castellan Crowe - Rending Cleansing Flame?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Sothas wrote:So if a "to wound roll" is different than "wound on a roll of" and there for "wound on a roll of" does not cause rending... please explain snipers.
Sniper rules state: "its shoodng attacks always wound on a To Wound roll of..." P.42 Notice how "To Wound" is capitalized? That means is is referring to the specific process of "To Hit", "To Wound" etc rolling. Your point is moot. The exact language of cleansing flame says "All enemy models that are part of the same assault suffer one wound on a roll of 4+" Notice how the former quote is capitalized and the latter is not. This shows that one follows the specific wounding process laid out in the rules, and the other just causes wounds without a "To Wound" roll.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/07/13 02:04:42
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/13 02:03:27
Subject: Castellan Crowe - Rending Cleansing Flame?
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus
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"Snipers always wound on a TO WOUND roll of 4+"
Hopefully that explains it
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Interceptor Drones can disembark at any point during the Sun Shark's move (even though models cannot normally disembark from Zooming Flyers).
-Jeremy Vetock, only man at Games Workshop who understands Zooming Flyers |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/13 02:10:58
Subject: Re:Castellan Crowe - Rending Cleansing Flame?
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver
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So it's that word 'to' that is so absolutely critical that not having it means any other method of wounding doesn't benefit from a USR? Really? The laser-like focus on specific verbiage is commendable, but is it really necessary in this case?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/13 02:18:16
Subject: Castellan Crowe - Rending Cleansing Flame?
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Been Around the Block
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The wording of Cleansing Flame also says, "are counted as having been caused in close combat." The wounds are caused IN close combat, not BY a close combat weapon.
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There is no overkill. Only open fire and reload |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/13 02:31:55
Subject: Re:Castellan Crowe - Rending Cleansing Flame?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Neorealist wrote:So it's that word 'to' that is so absolutely critical that not having it means any other method of wounding doesn't benefit from a USR? Really? The laser-like focus on specific verbiage is commendable, but is it really necessary in this case?
It is necessary in this case when "To Wound" is a defined process in the rules.
To illustrate, the book talks about the To Wound process, and capitalizes To Wound, whenever they are talking about their specific process.
Rending uses the same capitalization to denote that they are talking about the Str. Vs. Toughness comparison process.
"For each To Wound roll of a 6, the target automatically suffers a Wound, regardless of his Toughness. These'Wounds are resolved at AP 2." P.41
Notice Wound and Toughness are also capitalized? that is because it is specific to "Wound" and "Toughness" as defined in the rules.
and the To Wound rules capitalize as well. It is the convention the rules use to separate things.
"Note that the minimum roll needed To Wound is always at least 2." P.14
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/13 02:33:40
Subject: Re:Castellan Crowe - Rending Cleansing Flame?
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The Hive Mind
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Neorealist wrote:So it's that word 'to' that is so absolutely critical that not having it means any other method of wounding doesn't benefit from a USR? Really? The laser-like focus on specific verbiage is commendable, but is it really necessary in this case?
It's not just commendable - its required. Once you start saying two different phrases are "close enough" it starts to leave lots of room for interpretation. It's best just to use the phrases as they are.
Celticwelsh wrote:The wording of Cleansing Flame also says, "are counted as having been caused in close combat." The wounds are caused IN close combat, not BY a close combat weapon.
100% irrelevant. Crowes ability works on all close combat attacks. CF is defined as a close combat attack. That's the argument.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/13 02:35:11
Subject: Castellan Crowe - Rending Cleansing Flame?
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver
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Celticwelsh wrote:The wording of Cleansing Flame also says, "are counted as having been caused in close combat." The wounds are caused IN close combat, not BY a close combat weapon.
Here is an exact quote from the FAQ that i was basing my opinion of wether or not it is a close combat attack, and not just counts as having taken place in close combat.
"Q: Is Cleansing Flame a shooting attack or a close combat attack? (p31)
A: A close combat attack."
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/13 02:35:22
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