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Hello, i have quite an annoying problem: More than a few times people told me that playing against my army was "not fun".

I usually play between 1500 and 2000 with army lists made from 20 Paladins/Terminators, a level 3 Librarian, Kaldro Draigo, a Stormraven, a Land Raider Phobos or Redeemer, a Techmarine with harness and grenades, and 2 Riflemen Dreadnoughts.

What should i do to make playing against me a little more funny for the other player?
Also, what kind of army can i start to play friendly games with a low money cost?

I've never had a problem with draigo lists, they fall to massed shooting/attacks like everything else.

Give your opponents tips?
tell them how to beat you?

Dunno, if they're not having fun they're not doing it right.

Play a different army.
Don't play lists marked as not "fun" or "Cheese"

and yes you know if your list is cheese or not.

Could go either way, if you are bringing highly competitive lists to your local meta that is more fluff centered, then you should probably switch your army up a bit, at least for non-tournament games.

On the other hand if your opponents are showing up with "hard" lists too and you are simply outplaying them then the issue may lie with either your attitude or theirs, do you gloat? Do you not give tips in friendly games? Are you a win at all costs gamer? Are they?

Figure it out and modify your behavior or list accordingly, in the worst case find a different group that suits you better.

No offense but your list seems WAAC, and generally they arent fun to play against. Honestly I started playing DA in 5e and I have no clue what WAAC is for my army . Honestly with a list like yours I wouldnt even bother playing you.


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Meriados wrote:Hello, i have quite an annoying problem: More than a few times people told me that playing against my army was "not fun".

I usually play between 1500 and 2000 with army lists made from 20 Paladins/Terminators, a level 3 Librarian, Kaldro Draigo, a Stormraven, a Land Raider Phobos or Redeemer, a Techmarine with harness and grenades, and 2 Riflemen Dreadnoughts.

What should i do to make playing against me a little more funny for the other player?
Also, what kind of army can i start to play friendly games with a low money cost?

More PA marines less terminators, for a cheap 40k army....good luck with that, closest you could do is make a berserker CSM list, but since they are rapidly due for a new codex that money may come up wasted

Play shot for shot.

Everytime you take a shot at them, take a shot of something alcoholic. (If you're old enough.)

After the first dozen or so, you won't care anymore.

If people are making a fuss and it's getting to you, try dropping the special character. That might shut them up.

He'd need to change up his list there significantly if he dropped Draigo.

I haven't seen a draigowing list, but from what I see, they have many ways to be beaten, and many ways to win with. You shouldn't have to make your army list for someone because 'they don' like it' Its your list. If they have a problem with it, find someone who doesn't is what I would do.

n0t_u wrote:He'd need to change up his list there significantly if he dropped Draigo.

Just switch out some paladins for terminators surely?

I want to know how you fit all that into 2000 points.

Meriados wrote:Hello, i have quite an annoying problem: More than a few times people told me that playing against my army was "not fun".

I usually play between 1500 and 2000 with army lists made from 20 Paladins/Terminators, a level 3 Librarian, Kaldro Draigo, a Stormraven, a Land Raider Phobos or Redeemer, a Techmarine with harness and grenades, and 2 Riflemen Dreadnoughts.

What should i do to make playing against me a little more funny for the other player?
Also, what kind of army can i start to play friendly games with a low money cost?

I have Draigo and Paladins in my list as well, buts its only a starter point for me. The only reason I use him is because its a cheap way to get an army for 2000pts. I only needed to buy him, two boxes of Termies and a few other things and I was ready to go for less than £100. I already had Land Raiders and a Stormraven from my Blood Angels list so it was cheap to start instead of buying loads of new things for lots of dosh.

It depends on the scene at your store. If they are not competitive then reduce it down somewhat. Try using Purgation Squads and a Vindacare Assassin instead. Apparently a lot of Grey Knight players don't think Purgation Squads are great. Not sure why because I love them. Instead of using Draigo just take a Grand Master. The Land Raiders should provide the protecdtion you need from shooting before combat and within combat just give your Grand Master a Warding Stave with one Paladin also having a Warding Stave. Tool your Paladins differently for different squads. Have one with Daemonhammers to take care of any big things and just equip the other squad with Falcions or whatever for extra attacks, but meaning your opponent will, still get his attacks at you at Init 4.


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Commander Endova wrote:I want to know how you fit all that into 2000 points.

Well Draigo is 275pts, Librarian is 150pts and Paladins are 55pts each (without upgrades) so 20 of them will be 1100pts. Land Raiders are 255pts, so two of them are 510pts. So in essence that is 2035pts alone. So either he is playing more than that and is at 2500pts or he is not doing his calculations correctly.

Meriados wrote:Hello, i have quite an annoying problem: More than a few times people told me that playing against my army was "not fun".

I usually play between 1500 and 2000 with army lists made from 20 Paladins/Terminators, a level 3 Librarian, Kaldro Draigo, a Stormraven, a Land Raider Phobos or Redeemer, a Techmarine with harness and grenades, and 2 Riflemen Dreadnoughts.

What should i do to make playing against me a little more funny for the other player?
Also, what kind of army can i start to play friendly games with a low money cost?

What type of scenario are you playing? Try playing some scenarios that make it harder for your type of army. Don't just play kill points where Draigo lists are fairly unstoppable.

Sorry, i think i haven't explained myself very well, because english is not my first language. I meant i have all that miniatures, and i usually make lists with various combinations of them. I don't think it's a problem of attitude, nor me nor the other players are WAAC, and we usually play for fun.
I just started draigowing because i wanted to play but i had not a lot of disposable income.
Anyway, my usual list is Draigo, Lvl 3 Libby, 10 paladins all kitted out with apothecary, banner, stave, 3 paladins with a stave, a stormraven and a techmarine with servoharness.
Do you think this list is boring to play against? Should i use less paladins? No Stormraven? Should i use terminators?


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Kevlar wrote:

Meriados wrote:Hello, i have quite an annoying problem: More than a few times people told me that playing against my army was "not fun".

I usually play between 1500 and 2000 with army lists made from 20 Paladins/Terminators, a level 3 Librarian, Kaldro Draigo, a Stormraven, a Land Raider Phobos or Redeemer, a Techmarine with harness and grenades, and 2 Riflemen Dreadnoughts.

What should i do to make playing against me a little more funny for the other player?
Also, what kind of army can i start to play friendly games with a low money cost?

What type of scenario are you playing? Try playing some scenarios that make it harder for your type of army. Don't just play kill points where Draigo lists are fairly unstoppable.

We usually throw a dice like the rulebook says, but rerolling kill points and Relic.

Meriados wrote:Sorry, i think i haven't explained myself very well, because english is not my first language. I meant i have all that miniatures, and i usually make lists with various combinations of them. I don't think it's a problem of attitude, nor me nor the other players are WAAC, and we usually play for fun.
I just started draigowing because i wanted to play but i had not a lot of disposable income.

Same with me. It was a cheap way to start an army and build upon.

Anyway, my usual list is Draigo, Lvl 3 Libby, 10 paladins all kitted out with apothecary, banner, stave, 3 paladins with a stave, a stormraven and a techmarine with servoharness.
Do you think this list is boring to play against? Should i use less paladins? No Stormraven? Should i use terminators?

One problem with this list. Only ONE Paladin can have a warding stave. The option I run to get round this is to attach a character with a stave so I can two (one on the character and one on the paladin). Although you have mentioned stave twice here separately so perhaps you mean 3 Paladins with Halbards, which is fine.

DarthOvious wrote:

Meriados wrote:Sorry, i think i haven't explained myself very well, because english is not my first language. I meant i have all that miniatures, and i usually make lists with various combinations of them. I don't think it's a problem of attitude, nor me nor the other players are WAAC, and we usually play for fun.
I just started draigowing because i wanted to play but i had not a lot of disposable income.

Same with me. It was a cheap way to start an army and build upon.

Anyway, my usual list is Draigo, Lvl 3 Libby, 10 paladins all kitted out with apothecary, banner, stave, 3 paladins with a stave, a stormraven and a techmarine with servoharness.
Do you think this list is boring to play against? Should i use less paladins? No Stormraven? Should i use terminators?

One problem with this list. Only ONE Paladin can have a warding stave. The option I run to get round this is to attach a character with a stave so I can two (one on the character and one on the paladin). Although you have mentioned stave twice here separately so perhaps you mean 3 Paladins with Halbards, which is fine.

Ahah, sorry again, i mean a squad of 10 paladins, with 1 stave, 1 banner and 1 apothecary, and another squad of 3 paladins with 1 stave, 1 halberd and 1 hammer

Don't play Draigowing.
Don't be afraid to lose.

You're obviously playing a list made to crunch anything that isn't super competitive.

The problem is, if I know the people that play a Draigowing, you don't play to play. You play to win.
You think winning is fun, losing is not. Black and white.
Afraid if this is how you see it, people will think playing friendly games against you isn't fun, and the problem isn't your army.

Your only solution is to either try to learn liking losing, or play only competitive.

Shunting 40 inches with your jump infantry to spring a trap is fun.
But you might lose as they get cut down by fire that would have pinged off your paladin.

meh, I think people are overreacting by calling your list WAAC, and that's why nobody is having any fun. Besides, IIRC the tournament winning Draigo wing lists had the Paladin Death Star, backed up by Coteaz and about 6 psybacks, and another 3 dreadnauts. Your list is probably fine, and surely it is beatable.

The problem is that all things considered, its STILL not fun to play against! You are basically playing a big unkillable block of models and your only real weakness is lack of mobility and range outside your Dreads. So the way to beat you is to actively avoid your army, and seize objectives since you'll have a ton of difficulty holding more than 1 or 2- especially in 6th since squads are limited to holding a single objective.

SNORE

What most people enjoy about 40K is watching their opponents models DIE. Sure people don't like it when their own models die, but almost anyone would rather have a game where both sides suffer massive casualties in a brutally close game, than a game that is also close, but nobody loses any models, or only one side loses models.

That's your problem, that's why your list isn't fun to play against. Because Paladins by their very nature deny your opponents the fun of killing your army. Sure your list is beatable, but most players don't want to play a game where they pussyfoot around the enemy for 5 turns then move in on the objectives. They probably want a game where both sides can actually duke it out- and still have a chance.

One thing you can do is leave Draigo at home, only take 1 squad of paladins as elites, and run the rest as Terminators. People know how to kill regular terminators, its crazy 2 wound guys with an eternal warrior storm shield dude to absorb lascannon fire that starts to get frustrating.

Well if your local friends arent WYSIWYG run Draigo as a different leader, I trully wouldnt mind personally

Wardragoon wrote:No offense but your list seems WAAC, and generally they arent fun to play against. Honestly I started playing DA in 5e and I have no clue what WAAC is for my army . Honestly with a list like yours I wouldnt even bother playing you.

I play Draigowing at tourneys or against certain friends of mine who I know want a really intense, hard fought game. Against others I tone down my list or bring out a different army. I disagree that Draigowing is WAAC. It is tough as nails, but there are better builds to be made out of the GK codex to call Draigowing WAAC. With that said, I can understand that it can be frustrating to play against, especially for certain armies, because of how resilient the deathstar/deathstars are and how great they are in both the shooting and assault phase.

For some armies, (ie; Daemons, Orks, Tyranids), it's more or less a very boring game because they all have an outright lack of spamable S8+/ap2 or better firepower Thus it's forcing them to either play a pts denial game, (BORING!), or else try and beat down on of the game's best beatsticks!
Those armies tend to require at least some tailoring to stand against a Draigowing, otherwise they can end up with litterly no tools to get the job done.

And likely the biggest reason for the hate-on Draigowing was the whole wound allocation BS you could pull. It smacked of being gimmiky and doing nothing but looking for a way to game the system and avoid losing models like everyone else would.
Having to cause 11 wounds on models that can have a 2+/4++ save isn't much fun, and most armies don't have ready access to S8+/ap2 or better pie-plates to remove 3-4 pallies in one shot.



I think a couple things that can make your list a bit more fun would be;
a) Lose Draigo and make him just a regular old Grandmaster.

b) Drop the damn grenades!!! (if you're actually using psycho's and then questioning why people aren't having fun, I suggest letting them have a squad with the things and see how you like it!)

c) Add some power armour to the list. Termies just got massively buffed in 6th ed assaults. If people hated facing your army before, then they're going to really hate you know that their power swords & mauls don't do jack to your 2+ save!

helium42 wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:No offense but your list seems WAAC, and generally they arent fun to play against. Honestly I started playing DA in 5e and I have no clue what WAAC is for my army . Honestly with a list like yours I wouldnt even bother playing you.

I play Draigowing at tourneys or against certain friends of mine who I know want a really intense, hard fought game. Against others I tone down my list or bring out a different army. I disagree that Draigowing is WAAC. It is tough as nails, but there are better builds to be made out of the GK codex to call Draigowing WAAC. With that said, I can understand that it can be frustrating to play against, especially for certain armies, because of how resilient the deathstar/deathstars are and how great they are in both the shooting and assault phase.

Generally lists brought to tourneys are going to be as WAAC as possible, otherwise we would see grots, and Dark Angel Tactical marines all the time. But I digress, and one thing to remember is there are many armies that are currently unable to down a draigowing without tailoring their list to do so, especially with those grenades. Seriously as a Dark Angels player I have to pay 10 more points on my Heavy Weapons in my tac squads, including ML. Now in a tournament setting Draigowing is something that I expect to face (and lose against ), just like leafblower. If someone wanted to play a game against me with leafblower and I just had my Dark Angels......well I would look at them like they need mental help.

Suggestions:
Take it slow, slowly add some other units into your army, you don't need to buy an additional 2000 points of GK in one sitting, just whenever you have the spare money to blow pick up a box of PA Grey Knights, or any units that make you go "Well pointwise it probably sucks, but I want to try it!
Buy Dark Angels Codex and use your terminators as deathwing and Draigo as Belial (JK, Deathwing while fun has major issues)
If your local gaming community allows it, use Mantic miniatures as Imperial guard and use your GK as allies. The new ally FOC allows you to buy much less miniatures while being able to fill out an army.
Try dakkas swap shop, usually you can get some good deals.

akaean wrote:meh, I think people are overreacting by calling your list WAAC, and that's why nobody is having any fun. Besides, IIRC the tournament winning Draigo wing lists had the Paladin Death Star, backed up by Coteaz and about 6 psybacks, and another 3 dreadnauts. Your list is probably fine, and surely it is beatable.

The problem is that all things considered, its STILL not fun to play against! You are basically playing a big unkillable block of models and your only real weakness is lack of mobility and range outside your Dreads. So the way to beat you is to actively avoid your army, and seize objectives since you'll have a ton of difficulty holding more than 1 or 2- especially in 6th since squads are limited to holding a single objective.

SNORE

What most people enjoy about 40K is watching their opponents models DIE. Sure people don't like it when their own models die, but almost anyone would rather have a game where both sides suffer massive casualties in a brutally close game, than a game that is also close, but nobody loses any models, or only one side loses models.

That's your problem, that's why your list isn't fun to play against. Because Paladins by their very nature deny your opponents the fun of killing your army. Sure your list is beatable, but most players don't want to play a game where they pussyfoot around the enemy for 5 turns then move in on the objectives. They probably want a game where both sides can actually duke it out- and still have a chance.

One thing you can do is leave Draigo at home, only take 1 squad of paladins as elites, and run the rest as Terminators. People know how to kill regular terminators, its crazy 2 wound guys with an eternal warrior storm shield dude to absorb lascannon fire that starts to get frustrating.

This post right here is entirely comprised of CORRECT and USEFUL.

He is exactly right on all counts. I've played against paladin-heavy lists with Draigo in tournaments several times this year, and I can usually beat them, but with many armies doing so means actively hiding from/evading the death star all game, focusing on the mission and killing the support units in the army.

While this can be a tactically-satisfying game, there is something inherently frustrating to many players in being unable to kill or significantly hurt the major part of their opponent's army. Each time I've beaten the army it's been a close-run affair, the Draigo army doing much more damage to my army than mine does to his. The last time I faced it I decided to take a gamble at fighting it head-on, to try to get a bigger win out of the game, and the stuff I threw at it got slaughtered.

A lot of players really don't enjoy having to throw their stuff at or hide from a meatgrinder of a unit all game.

There's a pretty famous top tournament player who fielded a paladin-heavy build at the Adepticon Championships this year, and got into the finals with it. He gave feedback to the organizers afterward that he wasn't a big fan of the mission format they used, because it encourages people to play in a passive, non-aggressive manner. Some folks found this ironic, and opined that it was actually his army that encouraged people to play defensively, as only a few armies have the tools to really take on that unit and kill it. Most have to run from it and focus on objectives.

Your list is not WAAC. If it was, it wouldn't be ground to a screeching halt by really, really dumb things. Things such as being tank shocked off the board (with enough tanks, the old regrouping rules, and the lack of Fearless for Paladins). Or then as was now just stalled forever by anything with Blessing of the Blood God; the best one being Flesh Hounds. Combine their 2++ with Fateweaver and the Flesh Hounds will stall that oh so expensive unit long enough that the rest of their army should be dead.

So don't complain bout being unable hammer in a nail when all you got is a shovel! Get the right tools.

That being said, a fun thing my bro does is stick Draigo in front of all the pallies and NOT doing LOS. Draigo just takes everything.

Krak shot? DRAIGO GO!

Lascannon? DRAIGO GO!! *fails 3++*

Draigo: FNP!!!

20 bolter wounds? DRAIGO!!!!!!!

That's how you make that list hella fun.

Mannahnin wrote:

akaean wrote:meh, I think people are overreacting by calling your list WAAC, and that's why nobody is having any fun. Besides, IIRC the tournament winning Draigo wing lists had the Paladin Death Star, backed up by Coteaz and about 6 psybacks, and another 3 dreadnauts. Your list is probably fine, and surely it is beatable.

The problem is that all things considered, its STILL not fun to play against! You are basically playing a big unkillable block of models and your only real weakness is lack of mobility and range outside your Dreads. So the way to beat you is to actively avoid your army, and seize objectives since you'll have a ton of difficulty holding more than 1 or 2- especially in 6th since squads are limited to holding a single objective.

SNORE

What most people enjoy about 40K is watching their opponents models DIE. Sure people don't like it when their own models die, but almost anyone would rather have a game where both sides suffer massive casualties in a brutally close game, than a game that is also close, but nobody loses any models, or only one side loses models.

That's your problem, that's why your list isn't fun to play against. Because Paladins by their very nature deny your opponents the fun of killing your army. Sure your list is beatable, but most players don't want to play a game where they pussyfoot around the enemy for 5 turns then move in on the objectives. They probably want a game where both sides can actually duke it out- and still have a chance.

One thing you can do is leave Draigo at home, only take 1 squad of paladins as elites, and run the rest as Terminators. People know how to kill regular terminators, its crazy 2 wound guys with an eternal warrior storm shield dude to absorb lascannon fire that starts to get frustrating.

This post right here is entirely comprised of CORRECT and USEFUL.

He is exactly right on all counts. I've played against paladin-heavy lists with Draigo in tournaments several times this year, and I can usually beat them, but with many armies doing so means actively hiding from/evading the death star all game, focusing on the mission and killing the support units in the army.

While this can be a tactically-satisfying game, there is something inherently frustrating to many players in being unable to kill or significantly hurt the major part of their opponent's army. Each time I've beaten the army it's been a close-run affair, the Draigo army doing much more damage to my army than mine does to his. The last time I faced it I decided to take a gamble at fighting it head-on, to try to get a bigger win out of the game, and the stuff I threw at it got slaughtered.

A lot of players really don't enjoy having to throw their stuff at or hide from a meatgrinder of a unit all game.

There's a pretty famous top tournament player who fielded a paladin-heavy build at the Adepticon Championships this year, and got into the finals with it. He gave feedback to the organizers afterward that he wasn't a big fan of the mission format they used, because it encourages people to play in a passive, non-aggressive manner. Some folks found this ironic, and opined that it was actually his army that encouraged people to play defensively, as only a few armies have the tools to really take on that unit and kill it. Most have to run from it and focus on objectives.

Yea, you are right, i feared this was the problem. Why i have to like really elite and cool and resilient models sob?
Anyway, i think i'll try to use terminators as troops and paladins without Draigo, while i build another army starting from the Space Hulk terminators. Thank you all guys!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:Your list is not WAAC. If it was, it wouldn't be ground to a screeching halt by really, really dumb things. Things such as being tank shocked off the board (with enough tanks, the old regrouping rules, and the lack of Fearless for Paladins). Or then as was now just stalled forever by anything with Blessing of the Blood God; the best one being Flesh Hounds. Combine their 2++ with Fateweaver and the Flesh Hounds will stall that oh so expensive unit long enough that the rest of their army should be dead.

So don't complain bout being unable hammer in a nail when all you got is a shovel! Get the right tools.

That being said, a fun thing my bro does is stick Draigo in front of all the pallies and NOT doing LOS. Draigo just takes everything.

Krak shot? DRAIGO GO!

Lascannon? DRAIGO GO!! *fails 3++*

Draigo: FNP!!!

20 bolter wounds? DRAIGO!!!!!!!

That's how you make that list hella fun.

That's actually how i played it! But still people didn't find it fun to play... Even a WAAC guy with SW Long Fangs/Bjorn/Razorback spam

Meriados wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:

akaean wrote:meh, I think people are overreacting by calling your list WAAC, and that's why nobody is having any fun. Besides, IIRC the tournament winning Draigo wing lists had the Paladin Death Star, backed up by Coteaz and about 6 psybacks, and another 3 dreadnauts. Your list is probably fine, and surely it is beatable.

The problem is that all things considered, its STILL not fun to play against! You are basically playing a big unkillable block of models and your only real weakness is lack of mobility and range outside your Dreads. So the way to beat you is to actively avoid your army, and seize objectives since you'll have a ton of difficulty holding more than 1 or 2- especially in 6th since squads are limited to holding a single objective.

SNORE

What most people enjoy about 40K is watching their opponents models DIE. Sure people don't like it when their own models die, but almost anyone would rather have a game where both sides suffer massive casualties in a brutally close game, than a game that is also close, but nobody loses any models, or only one side loses models.

That's your problem, that's why your list isn't fun to play against. Because Paladins by their very nature deny your opponents the fun of killing your army. Sure your list is beatable, but most players don't want to play a game where they pussyfoot around the enemy for 5 turns then move in on the objectives. They probably want a game where both sides can actually duke it out- and still have a chance.

One thing you can do is leave Draigo at home, only take 1 squad of paladins as elites, and run the rest as Terminators. People know how to kill regular terminators, its crazy 2 wound guys with an eternal warrior storm shield dude to absorb lascannon fire that starts to get frustrating.

This post right here is entirely comprised of CORRECT and USEFUL.

He is exactly right on all counts. I've played against paladin-heavy lists with Draigo in tournaments several times this year, and I can usually beat them, but with many armies doing so means actively hiding from/evading the death star all game, focusing on the mission and killing the support units in the army.

While this can be a tactically-satisfying game, there is something inherently frustrating to many players in being unable to kill or significantly hurt the major part of their opponent's army. Each time I've beaten the army it's been a close-run affair, the Draigo army doing much more damage to my army than mine does to his. The last time I faced it I decided to take a gamble at fighting it head-on, to try to get a bigger win out of the game, and the stuff I threw at it got slaughtered.

A lot of players really don't enjoy having to throw their stuff at or hide from a meatgrinder of a unit all game.

There's a pretty famous top tournament player who fielded a paladin-heavy build at the Adepticon Championships this year, and got into the finals with it. He gave feedback to the organizers afterward that he wasn't a big fan of the mission format they used, because it encourages people to play in a passive, non-aggressive manner. Some folks found this ironic, and opined that it was actually his army that encouraged people to play defensively, as only a few armies have the tools to really take on that unit and kill it. Most have to run from it and focus on objectives.

Yea, you are right, i feared this was the problem. Why i have to like really elite and cool and resilient models sob?
Anyway, i think i'll try to use terminators as troops and paladins without Draigo, while i build another army starting from the Space Hulk terminators. Thank you all guys!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:Your list is not WAAC. If it was, it wouldn't be ground to a screeching halt by really, really dumb things. Things such as being tank shocked off the board (with enough tanks, the old regrouping rules, and the lack of Fearless for Paladins). Or then as was now just stalled forever by anything with Blessing of the Blood God; the best one being Flesh Hounds. Combine their 2++ with Fateweaver and the Flesh Hounds will stall that oh so expensive unit long enough that the rest of their army should be dead.

So don't complain bout being unable hammer in a nail when all you got is a shovel! Get the right tools.

That being said, a fun thing my bro does is stick Draigo in front of all the pallies and NOT doing LOS. Draigo just takes everything.

Krak shot? DRAIGO GO!

Lascannon? DRAIGO GO!! *fails 3++*

Draigo: FNP!!!

20 bolter wounds? DRAIGO!!!!!!!

That's how you make that list hella fun.

That's actually how i played it! But still people didn't find it fun to play... Even a WAAC guy with SW Long Fangs/Bjorn/Razorback spam

AoBR troops on ebay are your friend, used a good chunk of them to start my terminators. Also a good way to start any marine list.