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Reading the 1d4 article about Abaddon's incompetence (brilliant article btw), made me think that GW have shot themselves in the foot by putting Cadia and the Eye of Chaos next to each other. Cadia is a well established fluff/product line, so they can't fall...yet they guard the Eye, so no crusade can be successful without Cadia falling. This prevents any story line along the lines of a massive chaos incursion actually doing well and wrecking entire star systems.

What do you think?

not really since its been said that the cadia is by the most stable portion of the eye. Its where most people enter and exit the eye but there are more exits.

And chaos will never get a foot hold in the universe since GW wants to keep the status quo the same

Ya, but at the same time cadia is only established because of the eye. If cadia was far away, we wouldn't care about it. We would just care about what ever planet is closest and we would have the same problem.

The 12th Black Crusade was launched against the Gothic Sector.

So why does Abaddon keep launching a crusade against the second most well defended spot in the Imperium?

It'd be like Al-Queda launching terrorist attacks by running up to a huge US army base.


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BobofDoom wrote:not really since its been said that the cadia is by the most stable portion of the eye. Its where most people enter and exit the eye but there are more exits.

And chaos will never get a foot hold in the universe since GW wants to keep the status quo the same

The univese is a big place, there's plenty of room for a star system or 100 to be crushed by a Chaos incursion. Having them as they are at the moment, essentially scavengers and terrorists, is just weak.
I am well aware of the whole "enemy within" thing, but I'd like to see some fluff where there were serious amounts of Chaos Marines to the extent that the Imperium actually got scared.

Testify wrote:So why does Abaddon keep launching a crusade against the second most well defended spot in the Imperium?

Because it's the most stable point, allowing him to bring his forces en masse?

It'd be like Al-Queda launching terrorist attacks by running up to a huge US army base.

This demonstrates a complete lack of understanding, and why you really need to stop reading 4chan for background material.

It would be like a sensible commander attempting to marshal his forces for a huge strike. You don't win a war by sending people through piecemeal and hoping they don't get picked apart before they reach the other side.

Abaddon is utilizing a sensible approach, contrary to what many believe.
He has nigh unlimited resources he can pour through from the Eye of Terror.
Once he has "boots on the ground", he can have specialist Cults and/or Covens engage in actively opening Warp Rifts allowing for instant travel from within the Eye to Cadia's surface.
They can open gates allowing for Daemons to flood through.

And most importantly?
It draws forth as many resources as the Imperium can muster from outlying sectors. With his sorcerers stirring the Immaterium into a frenzy, there's no guarantee the Imperial reinforcements will even arrive at the destination much less be able to fight his forces.

Kanluwen wrote:

Testify wrote:So why does Abaddon keep launching a crusade against the second most well defended spot in the Imperium?

Because it's the most stable point, allowing him to bring his forces en masse?

It'd be like Al-Queda launching terrorist attacks by running up to a huge US army base.

This demonstrates a complete lack of understanding, and why you really need to stop reading 4chan for background material.

It would be like a sensible commander attempting to marshal his forces for a huge strike. You don't win a war by sending people through piecemeal and hoping they don't get picked apart before they reach the other side.

Abaddon is utilizing a sensible approach, contrary to what many believe.
He has nigh unlimited resources he can pour through from the Eye of Terror.
Once he has "boots on the ground", he can have specialist Cults and/or Covens engage in actively opening Warp Rifts allowing for instant travel from within the Eye to Cadia's surface.
They can open gates allowing for Daemons to flood through.

And most importantly?
It draws forth as many resources as the Imperium can muster from outlying sectors. With his sorcerers stirring the Immaterium into a frenzy, there's no guarantee the Imperial reinforcements will even arrive at the destination much less be able to fight his forces.

If it's so sensible, how come he's failed 13 or however many times?
If the pinacle of your strength is found wanting vs the pinacle of your enemy's, attack them where they are weaker, that seems obvious.

And doesn't Abaddon have "boots on the ground" at the moment...yet Cadia has not been over-run. So you appear to be wrong.

BobofDoom wrote:And chaos will never get a foot hold in the universe since GW wants to keep the status quo the same

This. Cadia isn't supposed to fall, and Chaos isn't supposed to win. Just like the IoM isn't supposed to win. The studio's timeline will, as it seems, forever be stuck at 999.M41, with Abbadon's attempted invasion of Cadia being the last event.

Testify wrote:So why does Abaddon keep launching a crusade against the second most well defended spot in the Imperium?

Because Cadia is the single-most annoying obstacle for any major Chaos incursion into Imperial space. You can sneak past it, but it remains a thorn in their side as it serves as the Imperium's main staging area for forces committed to intercepting Chaos incursions or even launching expeditions into the Eye itself.
Also, consider that Chaos is sorta in a win-win situation here. They don't necessarily have to score a successful invasion - all they have to do is tie up a continuous stream of Imperial reinforcements to be thrown into the grinder. Chaos strives for conflict more than it does for dominance.

Testify wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Testify wrote:So why does Abaddon keep launching a crusade against the second most well defended spot in the Imperium?

Because it's the most stable point, allowing him to bring his forces en masse?

It'd be like Al-Queda launching terrorist attacks by running up to a huge US army base.

This demonstrates a complete lack of understanding, and why you really need to stop reading 4chan for background material.

It would be like a sensible commander attempting to marshal his forces for a huge strike. You don't win a war by sending people through piecemeal and hoping they don't get picked apart before they reach the other side.

Abaddon is utilizing a sensible approach, contrary to what many believe.
He has nigh unlimited resources he can pour through from the Eye of Terror.
Once he has "boots on the ground", he can have specialist Cults and/or Covens engage in actively opening Warp Rifts allowing for instant travel from within the Eye to Cadia's surface.
They can open gates allowing for Daemons to flood through.

And most importantly?
It draws forth as many resources as the Imperium can muster from outlying sectors. With his sorcerers stirring the Immaterium into a frenzy, there's no guarantee the Imperial reinforcements will even arrive at the destination much less be able to fight his forces.

If it's so sensible, how come he's failed 13 or however many times?

Because not every Black Crusade is led by Abaddon, and not every Black Crusade has actually struck Cadia. Of the 13 Black Crusades, probably 6 have hit Cadia. One of those saw Cadia almost burnt to the ground, with the Astartes having to be mobilized in full force to repel.

That said, it's also the simple matter of the fact that Chaos inevitably turns upon itself.

If the pinnacle of your strength is found wanting vs the pinnacle of your enemy's, attack them where they are weaker, that seems obvious.

And if the pinnacle of your strength is unable to attack where they are weaker, you're throwing forces away.

As Lynata said though, even bypassing Cadia is going to mess you up because the area around it is a fantastic way to mess up the supply lines and logistical efforts of any of the Traitor Legions operating en masse.

And doesn't Abaddon have "boots on the ground" at the moment...yet Cadia has not been over-run. So you appear to be wrong.

If you actually knew the fluff from the 13th Black Crusade campaign, you'd know that Cadia was overrun, and Abaddon does have boots on the ground.
This is actually referenced in the novel "Cadian Blood".

Cadia hasn't fallen entirely, with Imperial forces still present and more forces being landed but it certainly was not an instance of Cadia whomping Abaddon.

Testify wrote:So why does Abaddon keep launching a crusade against the second most well defended spot in the Imperium?

It'd be like Al-Queda launching terrorist attacks by running up to a huge US army base.

No, it'd be like the Spetznaz in high-tech body army assaulting a US airforce base; the chances of success aren't all that low.

The EoT and Cadia work perfectly together, as they act as a sort of check and balance to the other. Though Abaddon has gotten far beyond Cadia, as has Angron, Cadia falling would allow Chaos more freedom while also causing the IoM to lose their fudge and their first and last line of defence against Chaos coming from the EoT.

Testify wrote:If it's so sensible, how come he's failed 13 or however many times?

As I recall, when Abaddon was originally introduced back in 2nd ed., it was indeed established that he was launching his twelfth Black Crusade, subsequently be fleshed out as the Gothic War (the thirteenth being the worldwide campaign back in 2003, described in Codex: Eye of Terror). This was, it's fair to say, rather a poor choice on Andy Chambers' part, since the guy who had failed eleven times already wasn't going to scare anybody with his twelfth attempt. I'm not really up-to-date, but I've got the impression that GW have subsequently realised this, and tried to diminish the scale of his failure by introducing other Black Crusades, and emphasising that old Ezekyle's have only been the significant ones.

You might want to check the 6th edition fluff for the black crusades then, because they've gone out of their way to show that with the exception of the 13th black crusade, none of Abaddon's black crusades were direct assaults on Cadia, and instead were attacks specifically designed to wear away at the Imperium's defenses at various points around the Eye of Terror. In addition, none of them are described as defeats. Seems like they're working hard to bury the idea of Failbaddon.

I actually think they could very easily do away with Cadia. But it makes more sense keeping it into conflict, since it offers one more battlefield for fluff lovers.

It's all about the Epic scale of 40k. The Imperium's been on the decline for 10 000 years... the Legions has been at war with them for that long. Something that can decline for 10, 000 years simply won't be killed by one successful crusade led by 10 Legions (which seems to have become Chapter-sized or even smaller with time) and their deamonic allies.

A few potential rationalizations :
1) The moral threat of Chaos is surely the most dangerous of any factions (with, funny enough, the Tau's as second), but as of now they haven't been described in anyway that suggest they'd rank as high as far as effective warring potential. So they act slowly and pick their targets carefully.

2) It's Chaos, so in the end that implies them being incapable of actually acheiving any coherent aim. So they trash around like angry idiots.

3) Winning isn't actually the objective of the Chaos powers. The Legions wants to win, but the Gods only want to throw their Champions in any conflict big enough that they might get whatever metaphysical profit they're after (emotions of suffering, plagues, plots or carnage, or maybe more deamon princes, or deamon worlds...)

Pick whichever one you like, or make your own!

Testify wrote:Reading the 1d4 article about Abaddon's incompetence (brilliant article btw), made me think that GW have shot themselves in the foot by putting Cadia and the Eye of Chaos next to each other. Cadia is a well established fluff/product line, so they can't fall...yet they guard the Eye, so no crusade can be successful without Cadia falling. This prevents any story line along the lines of a massive chaos incursion actually doing well and wrecking entire star systems.

What do you think?

That you haven't read the fluff. Each crusade (not all were lead or involved Abbandon) caused massive losses to the IoM, destroying whole marine chapters, raising woulds and star systems to the ground and causing the IoM to send massive numbers of troops to one area or space weakening the rest of the IoM to alien assault and internal revolt. Each crusade has lead the IoM further down the road of destruction. Even those crusades that focused on Cadia had splinter forces that crushed star systems held by the IoM.

Also your analogy of Abbandon being like 'terrorists attacking army bases' is heavily flawed seeing as that is one of the most powerful techniques they use, every few weeks the news reports of soldiers being gunned down by terrorists in military controlled areas, not only does this spread fear, confusion and distrust between the military bodies and local police/army forces it also increases the anti war feelings of spectators abroad which will lead to international troops most likely leaving before the job is done giving the terrorists a greater chance of success

The factor that many people forget, with regards to Abaddon 'failing', is that there is no real time in the Warp. The Crusades may to all outward appearances be 'failing' because they aren't securing a permanent foothold*, but to Abaddon it may feel more like they are quick, successive attacks each following rapidly after the previous even though in the material realm large amounts of time pass between them.

*As BluntmanDC said the Crusades have caused enormous damage to manpower & the Imperiums ability to wage war in that sector - they hardly failed in terms of material destruction.

Cadia burns. What is left of the imperial forces there has dug in and now hopes that whatever aditional reinforcements Segmentum command sends will
somehow break trough the warpstorms which now surround the Cadian Gate. Admiral Quarren's fleet, although in a better shape than it's chaotic counterpart,
suffered greatly in their recent, sucessful, attempt to fend of the corrupted Blackstone Fortress.
That's the situation atm and it is highly unlikely that GW will advance the timeline much.

Each of 'Baddy's crusades has accomplished some primary objective too, as well as causing large losses to the IoM. Abbadon is talking small steps towards victory, rather than throwing everything at Cadia in a do or die attempt to break it. He's smarter than that. The other 12 all weakened Cadia and the IoM in general so he had a viable chance of taking Cadia.

As others said.. GW hardly shoot themselves in the foot. Cadia is defined by its proximity to the Eye and its importance in stopping things coming out.

If anything, I find the whole set-up to make Cadia so pivotal slightly contrived (what exactly is a "stable warp route" and why would Abaddon need it? Seams like a lot of "just because" going on there).

But if Cadia wasn't the main-battlefield between Abaddon and the IoM, people wouldn't care about Cadia. They would care about whatever was the main-battlefield between Abaddon and the IoM.


I also don't quite understand the "cannot move the story forward argument". Even if GW decided to move the story along (they wont, just saying if), it would only matter IF they move the story along for the factions and places that ARE well established in the fluff: e.g. things like Cadia or Abaddon, etc..

If GW "just" moves the story forward for things that are not well established in the fluff and keep the status-quo with the known conflicts, they may as well just not do it. What would be the point? Its only an evolution of the story if it includes the protagonists and antagonists established and cared about by people.

Abaddon "breaking out" and "killing millions of worlds" that noone ever heard about isn't moving the story forward. It's just a random line thrown in there that millions of worlds have been killed. Noone will care because those millions of worlds didn't "exist" before the author choose to destroy them. That is no progression of the story.

It's similar to the problems Tyranids suffer IMO. They too, in their fluff, devour "thousands upon thousands" of worlds. But as soon as they hit anything with an actual "name" or some established background, they lose. That doesn't progress the story in any meaningful way.

The 'progress' is irrelevant.
GW establishes nothing new in the 6th ed BRB, so why should they 'end' anything they have?

Cadia has become their IG posterboys and in this is as likely to fall as is Macragge. You just don't drop the base of your primary line of models of a faction just to have the unneccesary trouble of 'progressing a storyline without having a storyline'.

In a way, the decision to base the line of plastic IG models on Cadia created a problem as this blocked the hordes of chaos from taking it over. Can't have Cadians without Cadia.
If the main plastic line of IG was any other wellknown source, like Tallarn , Valhalla, Mordian, etc , Cadia would be a prize to be taken without the IG players being stuck with an army of "homeless" , or worse traitors.

So yes, hold a gun to their feet and nearly pulled the trigger. Whatever may happen in future background add-ons, Cadia most likely will be a contested place and the black crusades will just have passed the Gate and stuck with too many competitors to achieve something final.

Well. I've given up on all of that. The fluff will never advance so don't worry about it

Testify wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Testify wrote:So why does Abaddon keep launching a crusade against the second most well defended spot in the Imperium?

Because it's the most stable point, allowing him to bring his forces en masse?

It'd be like Al-Queda launching terrorist attacks by running up to a huge US army base.

This demonstrates a complete lack of understanding, and why you really need to stop reading 4chan for background material.

It would be like a sensible commander attempting to marshal his forces for a huge strike. You don't win a war by sending people through piecemeal and hoping they don't get picked apart before they reach the other side.

Abaddon is utilizing a sensible approach, contrary to what many believe.
He has nigh unlimited resources he can pour through from the Eye of Terror.
Once he has "boots on the ground", he can have specialist Cults and/or Covens engage in actively opening Warp Rifts allowing for instant travel from within the Eye to Cadia's surface.
They can open gates allowing for Daemons to flood through.

And most importantly?
It draws forth as many resources as the Imperium can muster from outlying sectors. With his sorcerers stirring the Immaterium into a frenzy, there's no guarantee the Imperial reinforcements will even arrive at the destination much less be able to fight his forces.

If it's so sensible, how come he's failed 13 or however many times?
If the pinacle of your strength is found wanting vs the pinacle of your enemy's, attack them where they are weaker, that seems obvious.

And doesn't Abaddon have "boots on the ground" at the moment...yet Cadia has not been over-run. So you appear to be wrong.

6th Edition has changed Abaddon's Crusade objectives a bit subtlety. Rather then being 13 attempts to march on Terra but being stopped at Cadia, each was a calculated blow to bleed and weaken the Imperium. 6th Ed doesn't even refer to the 13 Crusades as "failures", rather they are "blows".

You may ask "10,000 years for just that?", but it hasn't been 10,000 years for Abaddon. Not even close to that, probably just a few centuries since the defeat at Terra. And we know that many forces will spend perhaps centuries planning a major assault (Alpha Legion, the Fall of Vilamus, Tyranids, etc.).

Anyway, it is a bit of a hole for GW but Cadia can fall and still have Cadian Shock Troops represented in fluff as their regiments are dispersed all over the Galaxy. Tanith First and Only doesn't have a homeworld either, and a new part of Cadian fluff could be to retake their world again.

That being said, the fluff will never advance. 3rd Armageddon, Hive Fleet Leviathan, and 13th Black Crusade have all been around since 2nd/3rd Editions with no progress whatsoever. Just their level of detail and subtle nuances have been expanded as the editions roll by.