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Hi guys,
Here is the list i'm working on.

HQ:
Captain w/ Relic Blade, Storm Shield, Artificer Armour, Bike - 190

Elites:
Terminator Squad w/ Cyclone Missile Launcher, Chain Fist - 235

Troops:
Bike Squad w/ +5 men, 2 Plasma Guns, Power Fist, Melta Bombs, Attack Bike: Multi-Melta - 325
Bike Squad w/ +5 men, 2 Plasma Guns, Power Fist, Melta Bombs, Attack Bike: Multi-Melta - 325
Bike Squad w/ +1 Man, 2 Plasma Guns, Power Fist, melta Bombs - 175
Scout Squad w/ +5 Men, Sniper Rifles, Teleport Homer - 185

Fast Attack:
Stormtalon Gunship w/ Skyhammer Missiles - 155
Stormtalon Gunship w/ Skyhammer Missiles - 155

1750 on the dot.

I was going to run Khan, but the recent nerf to outflank made my plans rather difficult. So i swapped to a more killy captain.
The scouts infiltrate forward into cover making for a nice location for termies to drop.

C&C please
Zambro

**EDIT**
Typo with the numbers and upgrades

Looks like a solid list.

The only thing I might suggest is replacing the scout squad with scout bikers. That way everyone who starts on the table will have a set of wheels. That's more of a flavor thing though.

If you do keep the foot scouts, look into fitting talion into the list. He is pretty awesome these days.

The 10 scouts are there for the Teleport Homer. They infiltrate forward, and make a nice spot for the termies to land. The Snipers got a nice boost from 6th, so i through it'd roll with them.

I did have scout bikers, but i think they are too flimsy. For the same points as the 10 scouts, i can get 4 bikes, with Locator Beacon, Power Fist and a few Astartes Grenade Launchers. Now, those 4 bikes die alot easier than 10 scouts hiding in cover, with stealth.

For your captain, consider the variants of basic power weapons instead of a Relic Blade. A Relic Blade is a standard power weapon with special rules, so it is AP 3 by the rulebook. Alternatively, you could take a Poweraxe for 15 points and give your captain +1 S, Ap2 Unwieldly - a decent tradeoff, with 15 points for an upgrade here or there, especially if you captain has to attack Terminators. However, getting your attacks at initiative 5 may be worth the Relic Blade all on its own anyways. Plus, you could take a Powerfist and come out about even anyways, with the benefits of S8, so that's up to you. As it is the Captain is near Godly with his profile now (2+/3++, T5!), so he should survive pretty well.

Also, note per the C:SM faq, scouts camo cloaks no longer confer Stealth; they confer +1 to your cover saves. This means that Stealth and Shrouded stack on your Camo Cloaks. Pretty Good, huh?

Zambro wrote:The 10 scouts are there for the Teleport Homer. They infiltrate forward, and make a nice spot for the termies to land. The Snipers got a nice boost from 6th, so i through it'd roll with them.

I did have scout bikers, but i think they are too flimsy. For the same points as the 10 scouts, i can get 4 bikes, with Locator Beacon, Power Fist and a few Astartes Grenade Launchers. Now, those 4 bikes die alot easier than 10 scouts hiding in cover, with stealth.

Have you run the scout bikes in 6th, or just in 5th? I agree that overall the snipers are going to be tougher to kill if they have a nice spot to camp. The question is if you think the benifit of a moving beacon is worth the risk.

I played two games yesterday in a small team tournament. My scout bikers got thier first time on the field, and had a pretty good showing. I ran a unit of 3, two GLs, melta bomb and becon on the sarge. 130pts. IIRC.

First game I reserved them, and they outflanked and popped a LRBT. It took the combined fire of a full tac marine squad and some sort of special squad in a chimara to put them down. The becon didn't get used, as my termis arived on the same turn. Still, well worth it (and an extra VP as it was a "big guns never tire" game). Surpisingly resiliant.

Second game I used the scout/infliltrate to set up a first turn shot at the back of a wave serpent. Due to eldar redeploy tricks, I wasn't able to get the shot I wanted, but still stuck a glance on it. 3 man scout squad don't take return fire from seer councils well. Not the best showing.

Scout bikes have a huge list of tricks up their sleaves. For a very reasonable point cost, they are a lot of fun to play with. And let you pull off stunts people don't expect from vanilla marines. I sugested them for your list mostly for theme, as all bikes is very cool, but I realy love the guys myself. If you have the models, I'd recomend swapping out the snipers for a game or two and see how they do.

Hmm, hadn't considered a Power Axe for AP2. Thinking about it, i would rather strike at I5, even if it is only AP3. I'd be pretty stupid to charge terminators anyway. And yeah, i do very much like his stat line. S6, T5, 2+/3++, and with Twin Linked Bolters If i can free up 10 points, i'd consider Hellfire Rounds for that extra kick

Thanks for pointing that out about the scouts.

The added bonus of the power axe is you can get a bonus attack if you drop the Stormshield for a Pistol or other CC weapon. However, the Stormshield in this case is by far the better choice.

A 3++ save is FAR better than a bonus attack, imo. And besides, i wouldn't risk the survivability anyway

The only reason I'd suggest it is you get a 4++ included in the captain's cost - which is still pretty darn good. but 3++ is a big difference, even if for 15 points. (same goes for the artificer armor)

I would get a lighting claw rather than relic blade or power weapon.

Not sure what the termies are doing for you, they are slow and will get left behind.

I would bring telion as he is awesome.

Also get an attack bike for every bike squad.

Then I have to say scout bikers used to be awesome. Now I need to play more with them, not being to assault from reserves, scout or infiltrate is pretty huge nerf, given it was a huge part of the flexability or at least threat.
They would be the better unit for having a beacon, as you do want Telion, and scout bikers can go anywhere.

I would seriously think about getting a command squad. FNP on toughnesss 5 models is pretty hardcore. Then with impact hits and the right weapons they can be the right unit to accompany the captain.

The other elements I could suggest would librarians on bikes. Then maybe some allies but this would take points, I think you have the right idea to concentrate on scoring units and covering firepower. The command squad would be better than the termies, do change that, also telion if you are going to make changes

What does telion bring to the army? His precision shots are not worth it, imo, due to the boost snipers got with 6th.

I did think about the scout bikers, but the fact i can only bring around 4 of them is dissappointing, as they can be killed alot easier than 10 scouts with +1 cover save. All the scouts are doing is making a nice, safe location for the Terminators to DS.
Now, that brings me onto the terminators. With it being alot harder to kill 2+ armour saves, i decided to include them. I decided against assault termies, and went for these. I get the additional fire power of 2 S8 shots per turn (Something i feel i need, especially with the range of the shots). Now i wanted to remain as 'in your face' as possible, deploying in home zone was a bad idea. So i deploy in reserve and DS to the scouts (Who infiltrate forward).

I will take another look at the list and swap the termies for a Command Squad, just to see how that works out. But it also means i lose the need for scouts, and also telion. I'll post the result in a while, to see how it looks.
Cheers folks!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, so i worked in a command squad:

HQ:
Captain w/ Relic Blade, Storm Shield, Artificer Armour, Bike - 190
Command Squad w/ Bikes, 3 LC, 4 SS, 1 TH, Meltabombs - 345

Troops:
Bike Squad w/ +5 men, 2 Plasma Guns, Power Fist, Melta Bombs, Attack Bike: Multi-Melta - 325
Bike Squad w/ +5 men, 2 Plasma Guns, Power Fist, Melta Bombs, Attack Bike: Multi-Melta - 325
Bike Squad w/ +2 Man, 2 Plasma Guns, Power Fist, melta Bombs, Attack Bike: Multi-Melta - 225

Fast Attack:
Stormtalon Gunship w/ Skyhammer Missiles - 155
Stormtalon Gunship w/ Skyhammer Missiles - 155

Ok, so whats new, and not:
-I have a super killy squad, with a 3+/3++/5+++(If moving) and FNP. Yeah, they will survive, especially being T5. 3 LCs, and a TH.
-Also gained 1 Bike, and an attack bike in the 3th bike squad.

-Lost 10 scoring models. Who were relatively survivable while in cover. And could target hidden power fists / special weapons.
-Lost 5 Terminators, with anti-tank shooting. and i lose the hard to kill 2+ armour save.

Now the trade off might seem good, im not sure about that.
What do you think of this?

Zambro wrote:What does telion bring to the army? His precision shots are not worth it, imo, due to the boost snipers got with 6th.

He gives stealth whilst camo cloaks now just give +1 cover. Then his shots are precision shots, which is probably better than his previous skill, not going to look it up.

Thunder hammer is not really worth it, try a fist with another model with meltabombs.

Ahh yes, Camo Cloaks and Stealth grants a +2 to cover.

You are also right about the TH. PF + MB are the same cost and can be more effective against tanks.

Thanks

Command squad on bikes is a pricey unit for a 1,750 list. In combat they still only have a 3+ armour save and no invul at all. Even with FNP anything that can hit back/hit first is likely to run straight through them. I have tried CC command squad before but ended up leaning towards the quad plasma version as that's much better at killing terminators and the like. Plasma in a FNP unit is cool in 6th.

I thought the comments on the relic blade vs power axe were very interesting. With the improved performance of 2+ armour in 6th I do wonder if the SS on top is maybe overkill. Going from 2+/4++ to 2+/3++ is not that huge and if you stick the captain in the command squad then he gets FNP on all bar instant death strikes or use look out sir to deflect the AP2 stuff away.

I think a fist and melta bomb on a bike squad is a bit excessive as well.

If going bikes I prefer attack bikes in the FA slots as you then have no armour on the table at all and it nullifies the armies with lots of high strength low volume shooting.

Techmarine on bike is fun as well if you can keep him protected.

hmm... Quad plasma is interesting... I'll almost always get hot though. Maybe i'll give it a look.

Your point about the SS is very valid. Although, the Captain's Initiative is 5, higher than most troops, so getting S6 hits in before they are able to return attack is good. Not sure if it is worth dropping him down to I1, for the sake of 2+ armour.

Fist, and MB is not excessive. Fist for MC, and terminators / ICs, and MBs for tanks.

Zambro wrote:hmm... Quad plasma is interesting... I'll almost always get hot though. Maybe i'll give it a look.

Your point about the SS is very valid. Although, the Captain's Initiative is 5, higher than most troops, so getting S6 hits in before they are able to return attack is good. Not sure if it is worth dropping him down to I1, for the sake of 2+ armour.

Fist, and MB is not excessive. Fist for MC, and terminators / ICs, and MBs for tanks.

I think keeping the relic blade over the power fist is a better idea init 5 isn't in such abundance for space marines that you should give it away so easily, and I also don't think he needs the Storm Shield. He's already got an Iron Halo, so you're paying those extra points for that 4++ to 3++ save but remember he can't be singled out anymore and he picked up "Look Out, Sir!" for additional protection. I think it's worth it to add the HQ command squad instead of the smaller bike squad. You're basically trading the scoring for the significantly tougher squad, but I don't think you'll need all that equipment like Zambro recommended. Lemme find my codex and I'll punch up a list.

EDIT: I don't think you should take an AP2 defeating weapon with the purpose of fighting terminators in hand to hand combat because: A) The plasma and melta weapons are better at defeating AP2 and B) Fighting terminators in hand to hand it's not usually the best option.

Bikes also get a 5++ jink save which helps against shooting. As it's a cover save, it doesn't help in melee.

I think drive by shootings with melta/plasma is going to be a lot safer then charging into combat.

Okay, here's what I punched out:

Space Marine Captain - 180
Bike, Artificer Armor, Relic Blade

Command Squad on Bikes - 270
Company Champion
1 Storm Shield
1 Melta Gun
1 Power Fist

Bike Squad w/3 Extra Bikes & Attack Bike w/Multimelta - 270
2 Plasma Rifles
1 Power Fist

Bike Squad w/3 Extra Bikes & Attack Bike w/Multimelta - 270
2 Plasma Rifles
1 Power Fist

Scout Sniper Team - 200
Missile Launcher
Teleport Homer
Tellion

Terminator Squad - 235
Cyclone Missile Launcher
Chainfist

Stormtalon Gunship w/ Skyhammer Missiles - 155
Stormtalon Gunship w/ Skyhammer Missiles - 155

Notes:
- Reduced the size of the bike squads a little to pay for some of the other stuff, and 8 bikes plus an Attack Bike is an unwieldy unit in its own right.
- Company Champion has a "power weapon" so if you wanted to customize his weapon that could give you some options there, especially with the captain's relic blade and the other veteran's power fist.
- Added Tellion and a missile launcher to the scout squad, his extra two stalker shots or a BS 6 Krak missile are always nice to have and with the new way shooting wounds are allocated, his ability to put the hits where he wants are even better. They're a good unit to have on the table, and with the teleport homer (and the lower numbers you need to roll to get stuff in from reserve) this should give them some extra options.
- I took out the melta bombs to trim points, but also since you've got comparable options in each squad already (and you can still only use one in combat regardless of attacks)
- I have no idea how the Stormtalons will perform so I just kept them as is.

If you have a third attack bike, you may want to think about fielding the bikes as three separate 4 Bike/1 Attack Bike squads but I don't know how much stuff you've got or whatever. I really didn't want to change your list drastically, so the same elements are more or less there, just in slightly different forms to keep your list a little more flexible.

RxGhostIf wrote: you have a third attack bike, you may want to think about fielding the bikes as three separate 4 Bike/1 Attack Bike squads but I don't know how much stuff you've got

Yeah, i will be buying 4 ravenwing boxsets to cover the bikes i should need. Then i'll pick up what ever else i need. I have 2 RW Boxsets so far, so i can change things if needed.

Hmm, the good bit about my bike set up is that i can combat squad into 2, having 1 with plasma, and the other with PF, MB and MM. Making 2 distinct squads for anti tank and infantry. With squads not at max size, i will be taking the MM out to make an attack bike squadron. That being said, im not sold on smaller bike squads, will play around with a few lists, but i combat squad, so i use smaller bike squads, so my point was (sorry, typing as i thought)

lemme find my book, and i'll make a list, with fairly small bike squads

See, that's the thing, I don't know that you need to combat squad them since you have a lot of slots open in your force org chart anyways.

You could just as easily have a decent size squad of bikes with 2 Plasma Rifles/Meltaguns and whatever for the sarge, and then just stick the three attack bikes w/multimeltas into that third open Fast Attack slot.

For that matter, why not dump one of the Storm Talons for a squad of Land Speeders that you're going to get in those boxes anyways. I'm an every part of the buffalo kinda guy.

Fast Skimmers can move full speed and fire two weapons at full BS, plus now that the first vehicle in the squadron takes the hits before they can passed on to the rest of the team, you can have a vanilla speeder at the head of the pack deflecting bullets with his face.

Came up with this:

Captain w/ Artificer Armour, Relic Blade, Bike – 180

Bike Squad w/ +2 Men, Combi-Plasma, Meltabombs, 2 Plasma Guns – 185
Bike Squad w/ +2 Men, Combi-Plasma, Meltabombs, 2 Plasma Guns – 185
Bike Squad w/ +2 Men, Combi-Plasma, Meltabombs, 2 Plasma Guns – 185
Bike Squad w/ +2 Men, Combi-Plasma, Meltabombs, 2 Plasma Guns – 185

Attack Bike Squad (2) w/ Multi-Meltas – 100
Attack Bike Squad (2) w/ Multi-Meltas – 100
Stormtalon Gunship w/ Lascannon – 150

Leaves me with 480 points. I didn't want to put Termies into there, as for 235 i can get better anti-tank, and the main attraction to termies is their Missiles.

So, i got bike squads at minimum size allowed to make them troops. Triple Plasma (1 of which is single use) makes for some mean anti-MEQ/TEQ - Should i swap the combi weapon to a plasma pistol? better than single use, but shorter range.

Swapped the Skyhammer MIssiles on the ST to Lascannons. Seeing as i only had 1 spot open for them after the Attack bikes, i thought there had better be no messing around, i need reliable anti air. re-roll to hit, S9 is pretty reliable to me ;D

Where do you think i should go from here?

I don't think the combi plasma is worth giving up the melee capability of the bike sarge with either a power weapon or fist.

Also, I don't think streamlining the army into 2 different types of units is really going to improve it, not at the expense of your hard armor and infiltrating snipers, and now that snipers have pinning, rending and 'pick who you kill if you roll a 6 to hit'.

If the main attraction of the Termies is the missile launcher, then yes you don't need them, you could get two missile shots a turn for less points.

The main attraction is that you have 5 Storm Bolters, a power weapon, a cyclone and 4 power fists in a squad that you can put just about anywhere on the table by the second or third turn. And now that the power weapon rules have changed Termies care even less about getting attacked by power weapons than before.

The big advantage in the base list you wrote, is that it's flexible both in tactical options you have as well as what your opponent will have to deal with. Plus that army'd be tough as nails and have a long reach. Command Bike Squad with a captain and feel no pain, 2 Bike Squads (remember all bikes get jink, hammer of wrath and relentless now too), a terminator squad and a stealth'd scout squad with sniper rifles.

I cannot comment on the Stormtalon as I have not fought with or against one.

Ok, I want to stir the conversation back to the list in the OP. We have discussed various things to a point where i am so focused on making them 'awesome', that i'm missing the bigger picture of the army as a whole.

I have to put an additional bike into the 3rd bike squad, because bikes only count as troops IF they have more than 5 men in a squad. Cant believe i missed than when making the list in the first place.

So i strip the SS from the Captain, as pointed out. Need another 10 points from somewhere. What do you think about changing the Skyhammer Missiles to Twin Linked Lascannons on the Storm Talons? Twin Linked (So more reliable) and S9, not S7, and AP2, so i can do more damage reliably.

I think the sky hammer missiles combined with the assault cannon are going to be more useful. You've got more shots on target and you could easily glance a vehicle to death in a single turn of shooting. The Skyhammer is Str7, AP4 Heavy 3, am I remembering that right?

It seems that most other flyer/skimmers are sitting at around AV 12, so 3 Str7 and 4 Str 6 rending per turn and getting to the side/rear armor of most other transports and not-land-raiders should be pretty effective.

Also, would the escort rules on the storm talon let it come in with the terminators?

You can just drop the melta bombs from the bike squads for the 10pts if you're going to keep the fists in that squad.

I suppose i could just trim the MBs and keep the firepower on the STs.

No i cant escort something that is Deep Striking, only Outflanking.