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Alright, since I think we're going to see a lot of people dusting their Tau armies off with 6th edition (myself included), I was reading the codex again with the FAQ. Specifically my question revolves around markerlights and the Snap Shot rules in the main rule book.

The markerlight can obviously expend a counter to increase the ballistic skill of the model. What I'm wondering is, when we determine that the unit must snap shot at a target (Say shooting at a flyer) that has ML counters on it, if we can expend a markerlight counter to increase the ballistic skill at which snap shots are made?

Snap shot has the unit counting as BS 1 for the shot, but are we actually able to improve that through the use of a ML? It could be seen one of two ways, expend the counter and the base ballistic skill goes up, but does not alter the snap shot rule. Or it can be seen as we add +1 to whatever ballistics skill we are shooting at with the unit, and with snap shots that would be a ballistic skill of 1 rather than the normal 3.

No you cannot as the order of operation for modifiers is Multipliers, Additions, Set Values.

Since the +1 BS is an Addition it happens before Snap Fire kicks in and sets the BS down to 1

Marklights can't effect Snap fire. Sucks but it has to do with set values and modification orders (Base>mulitplers>+/_> Set Value). Set Values over ride everything else. Same problem with targeting array.

On the other hand MLs took a hit do to the lose of Target Lock from suits and infantry. Pretty much reduced MLs to ML Drones for use by the unit, pathfinders and Tetras.

I realize that's the normal order of operations, however as the markerlight reads, "To allow a unit which fires at the target to do so at +1 to its ballistic skill. This effect may be stacked, allowing a Ballistic skill up to a maximum of 5." My question isn't about the order of operations, but whether the wording of the markerlight with it's working works with snap shot or is overridden. It's firing at the target, so it gets +1 to it's ballistic skill, which in this case will count as a BS 1 due to snap shots.

So I guess the question should be, does the markerlight increase the ballistic skill of a snap shot? There is no time frame for the increase of the ballistic skill, only that the marker is removed after the rolls to hit are made.

It is about order of operation, your Fire Warriors are BS 3, they use a markerlight BS 4, are required to Snap Fire BS is reduced to 1

CrashCanuck wrote:It is about order of operation, your Fire Warriors are BS 3, they use a markerlight BS 4, are required to Snap Fire BS is reduced to 1

I understand order of operations in this edition. What I'm questioning is wording of a rule. "To allow a unit which fires at the target to do so at +1 to its ballistic skill. " There's the quote. We expend a counter, our ballistic skill goes up to 4. It is set to 1, so our ballistic skill has changed, and we do not have the +1 bonus to our ballistic skill at this point. Does that get added in again, to fulfill the rule for markerlight, in other words do we do get the bonus from the counter that we are supposed to get?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It may be a bit of an odd question I'm asking, but what I'm trying to ask is this. The units ballistic skill is set at 1 for snap shot (this is determined before the roll to hit), now that my ballistic skill is set at 1, can I use a markerlight to increase that to say BS 2?

Unfortunately, since it states nothing about overriding the set value modifiers that are presented in the BGB, I would assume it would simply fall under the BGB's order of operations

You could, however, theoreticaly snap fire/overwatch fire a seeker missile, if I am not mistaken? Do those interact with the BS mechanic or are they still writtine "hit on a 2+" ? Might not be worth it most of the time, but its about the only way I see ML being useful in overwatch. Well, that and forcing a random pin penalty.

Phazael wrote:You could, however, theoreticaly snap fire/overwatch fire a seeker missile, if I am not mistaken? Do those interact with the BS mechanic or are they still writtine "hit on a 2+" ? Might not be worth it most of the time, but its about the only way I see ML being useful in overwatch. Well, that and forcing a random pin penalty.

the FAQ adresses using a ML hit to fire a seeker missile in overwatch.

Phazael wrote:You could, however, theoreticaly snap fire/overwatch fire a seeker missile, if I am not mistaken? Do those interact with the BS mechanic or are they still writtine "hit on a 2+" ? Might not be worth it most of the time, but its about the only way I see ML being useful in overwatch. Well, that and forcing a random pin penalty.

Can't fire a seeker from a ml counter used in overwatch. The missile itself fires at an assumed ballistic skill of 5. This raises another question. Assume we are shooting at a flyer for this example. We use snap shot to hit a flyer with a markerlight. We then expend that counter to fire a seeker missile at the flyer, do we need to snap fire with that seeker missile even though we've already gone through snap firing at that flyer, or does the markerlight counter allow it to hit the unit with it's normal ballistic skill? My personal thoughts, nothing in the wording of the ml/seeker missile overrides the snap shot, but it's another question that could raise discussion.

Lone Dragoon wrote:

Phazael wrote:You could, however, theoreticaly snap fire/overwatch fire a seeker missile, if I am not mistaken? Do those interact with the BS mechanic or are they still writtine "hit on a 2+" ? Might not be worth it most of the time, but its about the only way I see ML being useful in overwatch. Well, that and forcing a random pin penalty.

Can't fire a seeker from a ml counter used in overwatch. The missile itself fires at an assumed ballistic skill of 5. This raises another question. Assume we are shooting at a flyer for this example. We use snap shot to hit a flyer with a markerlight. We then expend that counter to fire a seeker missile at the flyer, do we need to snap fire with that seeker missile even though we've already gone through snap firing at that flyer?

That is what I am wondering...it can either be seen as a normal BS modifier (like a space marine firing at BS 4, for example), or it can be seen as a set value for the BS of the missile.

one way, you need a 6 to hit with the marker light, then another 6 to hit with the missile.

the other way, you need to roll off against (yourself?) and see which set modifier applies first.

The FAQ clears that up by saying that seeker missiles that would normally be BS1 due to snapfire are always fired at BS5, now we need an AA markerlight platform..

Bobug wrote:The FAQ clears that up by saying that seeker missiles that would normally be BS1 due to snapfire are always fired at BS5, now we need an AA markerlight platform..

I know the quote you're commenting on, but the mistake you're making is that the vehicle is forced to snap shot. The seeker missile is never "fired by the vehicle" even though the vehicle carries it.

Bobug wrote:The FAQ clears that up by saying that seeker missiles that would normally be BS1 due to snapfire are always fired at BS5, now we need an AA markerlight platform..

I'd like to dispute that. the FAQ only clearly says that a seeker missile's ballistic skill is not effected by the vehicle carrying it. It was exactly the same as "can a shaken or stunned vehicle still fire seeker missiles."

Edit: the ninjas...they're everywhere

To the primary question about ML and snap shot.

The rule for snap shot says 'the ballistic skill is counted as 1 for the purposes of those shots.'

No matter what BS the firer is, the skill is counted as 1.

So, for anything that effects a models BS, such as ML and Signums and things, they wont effect snapshots as snapshots don't change the firers BS, just the BS that the shots use.

Lone Dragoon wrote:

Bobug wrote:The FAQ clears that up by saying that seeker missiles that would normally be BS1 due to snapfire are always fired at BS5, now we need an AA markerlight platform..

I know the quote you're commenting on, but the mistake you're making is that the vehicle is forced to snap shot. The seeker missile is never "fired by the vehicle" even though the vehicle carries it.

Actually, according to the Markerlight rules, the vehicle does fire the Seeker Missile.

To allow a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit. This shooting is resolved normally at an assumed Ballistic Skill of 5.

The question is whether assumptions on Ballistic Skill occur before, after or at the same time as set modifiers. If it's before then it fires at BS1, if it's at the same time then it's a roll off between BS1 and BS5, if it is after then the ballistic skill is set to one but we assume it is 5.

As the Rules do not have anywhere anything that tells us when assumed Ballistic Skills are applied, all we can do is follow what the FAQ says, which is that when a vehicle is forced to fire at BS1, whatever the reason, the Seeker Missile fires at BS5.

According to the Markerlight rules, the vehicle is firing the Seeker Missile at the marked target, so the vehicle is doing a Snap Shot against that flier which reduces its BS to 1 but the Seeker ignores that and uses BS5.

Kiredor wrote:To the primary question about ML and snap shot.

The rule for snap shot says 'the ballistic skill is counted as 1 for the purposes of those shots.'

No matter what BS the firer is, the skill is counted as 1.

So, for anything that effects a models BS, such as ML and Signums and things, they wont effect snapshots as snapshots don't change the firers BS, just the BS that the shots use.

I'm going to use a firewarrior squad to shoot at an ork flyer with one markerlight from pathfinders shooting. I check line of sight, range, etc. Since I have chosen my target, my ballistic skill counts as one at this point. Before I pick up the dice to roll I use the marker light counter to improve my ballistic skill (which counts as 1) by one. I am not using another set value, and it's already past the point that the set value is applied. Can a set value be modified? It can be replaced with a different set modifier, we have permission. Modification though is the big question. The order of operations tells us to apply it in such a way. The problem is, what happens if the modification comes after a set value modifier?

The only problem with your example above is that the FAQ states you must declare that you are using a token before To Hit rolls are made. Since Snap Fire applies when determining your BS (as well as the tokens), right before you roll the To Hit rolls, the rulebook's order of operations still takes effect

SCvodimier wrote:The only problem with your example above is that the FAQ states you must declare that you are using a token before To Hit rolls are made. Since Snap Fire applies when determining your BS (as well as the tokens), right before you roll the To Hit rolls, the rulebook's order of operations still takes effect

Actually, if I had just looked in the book my original question would have been answered. We do not determine ballistic skill until after we roll, since it is after we roll that we check the final ballistic skill.

Huh, so I can roll my dice without any clue what they do?...the more you know.