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So, came up in our last game, the Tesla Destructor from Annihilation Barge shoot at unit in open.... one unit was affected by the Arc rule, but we could not draw line of sight from AnnihilationB to unit affected by Arc, we assumed that the shoots are lost due to lack of LOS...
Not sure if this is correct ,so, how you read this rule?

Technically, it would hit and wound, but you would not be able to allocate any wounds to any of the models.

Up to you how you resolve that situation.

I'd say you got it correct, at least how it should be played. The FAQ says cover saves and armor facings of arc'ed units are determined from the Anni Barge, so I'd think it fairly safe to say that you must be able to draw LOS from it as well for wounds.

LOS is drawn from the target, not from the barge.

The splash damage is not from the vehicle; it is from the target unit, as that is where the damage is coming from.

The shots are not lost. You don't need LOS to work out Arc hits. Think of them as working like blast markers; It's OK for them to affect units out of LOS.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:LOS is drawn from the target, not from the barge.

The splash damage is not from the vehicle; it is from the target unit, as that is where the damage is coming from.

The FAQ disagrees with you.

Marshal_Gus wrote:The shots are not lost. You don't need LOS to work out Arc hits. Think of them as working like blast markers; It's OK for them to affect units out of LOS.

Except they aren't blast markers, and unlike blast markers you are never given permission to ignore LOS.

Does that mean you are allowed to focus fire with Arc hits too? I mean, come on guys its meant to be random arcs from the primary unit, not some precise shot from the firing vehicle.

Maelstrom808 wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:LOS is drawn from the target, not from the barge.

The splash damage is not from the vehicle; it is from the target unit, as that is where the damage is coming from.

The FAQ disagrees with you.

I'm not entirely sure I agree with that.
The FAQ refers to cover saves and vehicle facings, but not to LOS.
Now, logically, as the arcing is originating from the target unit, the damage should originate from them...but on the other hand, the FAQ does specify that cover is to be treated as if the damage is coming from the barge itself.

Now, does cover = LOS? That's the question.

Phazael wrote:Does that mean you are allowed to focus fire with Arc hits too? I mean, come on guys its meant to be random arcs from the primary unit, not some precise shot from the firing vehicle.

I'd say if you focus fire with the main shot, then the arc hits would follow the same. The FAQ tells you that cover and armor facings for arc hits are determined from the barge's perspective, that's a pretty blatant example that they consider the arc hits to need to be resolved from the barge.

I agree that it's unfluffy and it should be worked out from the target unit, but GW apparently disagrees.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BRB pg 73 wrote:Shots are resolved against the facing of the vehicle that the shot comes from.

Necron FAQ pg 4 wrote:Q: Are cover saves and facings for the hits from the tesla destructor's Arc special rule worked out using the position of the firing unit or the unit it targeted?
A: From the firing unit.

Pretty clear (if unfluffy/illogical) where the shot comes from.

''The FAQ tells you that cover and armor facings for arc hits are determined from the barge's perspective, that's a pretty blatant example that they consider the arc hits to need to be resolved from the barge.''

Yet it doesn't state LOS is determined from the barge for the arc rule only for the initial shot as for the arc rule ''you roll a D6 for each other unit within 6'' of the TARGET. If you roll a 6, that unit suffers D6 automatic strength 5, AP- hits.'' Both the Line Of Sight pg12 and the Out Of Sight rule on pg16 only references the TARGET UNIT that you have to see, not the other units affected by a special rule such as the arc, so in this case because they have that wording the arc rule would still affect units that cant be seen by the barge and the wounds would still be inflicted as they are not the target unit so the LOS & Out Of Sight rules do not apply.

It wouldn't state that LOS is determined from the POV of the barge, as that is already a given due to the normal 'Shooting Phase' rules.

"...A model normally needs line of sight whenever it wishes to attack an enemy, whether with power sword, gun or psychic power..."
"...To target an enemy unit, at least one model must have line of sight (see page 8) to at least one model in the target unit...
"...If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining Wounds in the pool are lost and the shooting attack ends..."

I agree with everyone who is saying that the LOS 'should' probably be determined from the unit which the extra hits are radiating from, but currently there is no official rules to support that so you have to go with the default rules which indicate the annihiliation barge itself.

Maelstrom808 wrote:

BRB pg 73 wrote:Shots are resolved against the facing of the vehicle that the shot comes from.

Necron FAQ pg 4 wrote:Q: Are cover saves and facings for the hits from the tesla destructor's Arc special rule worked out using the position of the firing unit or the unit it targeted?
A: From the firing unit.

Pretty clear (if unfluffy/illogical) where the shot comes from.

I agree with Maelstrom808 on the rules interpretation. However, I think that it's actually quite fluffy:
http://comps.canstockphoto.com/can-stock-photo_csp4922600.jpg
Arcing electricity still comes from the source of the current. So, in the pic above, if the nut was the original target, i'd see the arcing hitting the bolt and the pink stuff. Both have to be 'reasonably close' to the first target (the nut), but there still has to be a direct line between the bolt/pink stuff and the source of the current.

I think the 'Out of Sight' rules on p16 reinforce this.

BRB pg 16 wrote:If no models in the firing unit can see a particular model, then Wounds cannot be allocated to it, and must be instead allocated to the nearest visible model in the target unit"

I think 'target unit' here refers to the unit hit by the arc. I can't see anything in the rules anywhere that says that the arcing is exempt from this rule. 'Target unit' isn't even mentioned in the first half of the sentence, which disallows wound allocation to unseen models.

DexKivuli wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:

BRB pg 73 wrote:Shots are resolved against the facing of the vehicle that the shot comes from.

Necron FAQ pg 4 wrote:Q: Are cover saves and facings for the hits from the tesla destructor's Arc special rule worked out using the position of the firing unit or the unit it targeted?
A: From the firing unit.

Pretty clear (if unfluffy/illogical) where the shot comes from.

I agree with Maelstrom808 on the rules interpretation. However, I think that it's actually quite fluffy:
http://comps.canstockphoto.com/can-stock-photo_csp4922600.jpg
Arcing electricity still comes from the source of the current. So, in the pic above, if the nut was the original target, i'd see the arcing hitting the bolt and the pink stuff. Both have to be 'reasonably close' to the first target (the nut), but there still has to be a direct line between the bolt/pink stuff and the source of the current.

I think the 'Out of Sight' rules on p16 reinforce this.

BRB pg 16 wrote:If no models in the firing unit can see a particular model, then Wounds cannot be allocated to it, and must be instead allocated to the nearest visible model in the target unit"

I think 'target unit' here refers to the unit hit by the arc. I can't see anything in the rules anywhere that says that the arcing is exempt from this rule. 'Target unit' isn't even mentioned in the first half of the sentence, which disallows wound allocation to unseen models.

Oooh that's a good point.
I was thinking along the lines of chain lightning, that spell in fantasy games.

Neorealist wrote:I agree with everyone who is saying that the LOS 'should' probably be determined from the unit which the extra hits are radiating from, but currently there is no official rules to support that so you have to go with the default rules which indicate the annihilation barge itself.

This is correct.

Pg 4 Necron Errata
Q: Are cover saves and facing for the hits from the Tesla destructorr's Arc special rule worked out using the position of the firing unit or the unit targeted? (p82)
A: From the firing unit.

As far as cover saves go, see above. Note though, your armor save may be better, in which case, you'll have to take the armor save.

It wouldn't state that LOS is determined from the POV of the barge, as that is already a given due to the normal 'Shooting Phase' rules.
"...A model NORMALLY needs line of sight whenever it wishes to attack an enemy, whether with power sword, gun or psychic power..."
"...To target an enemy unit, at least one model must have line of sight (see page 8) to at least one model in the TARGET UNIT...
"...If there are no visible models in the TARGET UNIT, all remaining Wounds in the pool are lost and the shooting attack ends..."

The LOS from the barge is used for the initial shot itself as it only advises that the TARGET UNIT has to be in LOS and in RANGE, the arc rule hits any other units within 6'' on the role of a 6 automatically but does not class them as being a TARGET UNIT, the TARGET UNIT is the unit i shot the TD at and not every other unit hit by the arc, you cant have multiple target units unless your unit has a special rule which will state you may pick another target unit such as the Power of the Machine Spirit does.

''I think 'target unit' here refers to the unit hit by the arc. I can't see anything in the rules anywhere that says that the arcing is exempt from this rule. 'Target unit' isn't even mentioned in the first half of the sentence, which disallows wound allocation to unseen models.''

You're correct it doesn't mention it in the first sentence of a paragraph, if you were to read upto the bullet point at the end of that paragraph you can see it does specifically reference a target unit.

I appreciate the assumptions that LOS and Out Of Sight rules should apply and i can understand them but due to those rules stating 'the' or 'a' target unit of which the rulebook only confirms the actual unit i chose and shot at with the TD being my target unit, aswell as the ARC rule not classing those hit by it as being targetted units themselves and thus why i believe it is up for debate.
The arc ability is a special rule of an already resolved shooting attack at a target unit, this ability is very similar to the Lord of the Storm used by Imotekh which is also not a shooting attack but a specific special rule, however LotS affects the whole battlefield but the arc only affects those in 6'' of the target unit, both roll a D6 for each unit in their area of effect and on a roll of a 6 that unit is hit automatically (it never states they are a targetted unit) so in these instances you dont have a target unit, due to having no target unit LOS does not apply which is why they can hit any unit in their area of effect and the Out Of Sight rule would not apply either so damage is still done and saves are still taken.