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In the rulebook in the reserves section the rulebook states you may only place half your army in reserves. Does this mean daemons cannot play in this edition?

CommunistGekko wrote:In the rulebook in the reserves section the rulebook states you may only place half your army in reserves. Does this mean daemons cannot play in this edition?

You may only place half your army in reserve, unless you have a special rule that says you must be kept in reserve. Such as flyers, drop pod units, terminators, and daemons.

By Terminators you mean Deathwing?

They are allowed to deploy normally

Therefore they do count towards reserves.

I believe they only don't count against the 50% if they must deep strike, so drop pods, flyers,and Chaos Daemons. Terminators always may start in reserve so they should count against your 50%.

Thanks very much, what page does it confirm that if they must be in reserve they dont count

The line directly after the one that limits someone to half their units in reserve.

Reserves, pg. 124

Kiredor wrote:By Terminators you mean Deathwing?

They are allowed to deploy normally

Therefore they do count towards reserves.

I meant any terminators. The wording under terminator armor in C:SM is "may always be kept in reserve." The word always is important in this, not the word may. I'm not forced to deploy them into reserves, however if I decide to deep strike them by their teleportation rule, they do not count because of the word always. It's a choice when reserves are made, are you going to deploy outside of reserves (you may), or are you going to make the choice that you "may always" be kept in reserve. It's a bit of a grey area certainly, but it allows certain armies (Deathwing for example) to be kept in reserve and use their special rules to bring units on first turn.

TheAvengingKnee wrote:I believe they only don't count against the 50% if they must deep strike, so drop pods, flyers,and Chaos Daemons. Terminators always may start in reserve so they should count against your 50%.

You have to watch out with this statement, a unit of tactical marines does not have to start in its drop pod. Thus an argument could be made that they do not have permission that they "must" be held in reserve with their drop pod. We don't have explicit permission to actually keep all units in their drop pods in reserves. Drop pods must be kept in reserve, but units that the drop pods are bought for still count.

You may always keep them in reserves.

They will always count towards the 50% you have in reserves.

Only units that MUST start in reserves are ignored.

They may always start the game in reserve and arrive using the deep strike rules, even if it is not part of the mission being played.

Its all one sentence, not separate rules.

It is always part of the mission being played, so that rule no longer matters.

The terminator armor's rule overrides the 50% rule however. Say I have half my army in reserves, and I want to deep strike with a unit of terminators. Because they "may always be kept in reserve" the 50% rule is overridden for them. Why? If I have half an army already in reserve, the 50% of the force rule tells us that's all. However, I "may always" place deep striking terminators in reserve. If I have half the army already in reserves it is an argument between cannot be placed and may always be placed. If something can always do something, it overrides prohibitions against it, unless the prohibition directly prevents something that "always" happens.

If you have more than 50% of your army as terminators, i'd allow it.

If you only have like 1 unit out of 11, then you could have 6 units, one of those being the terminators.

If they are not part of the 50% of your army you chose to reserve, then you are CHOOSING NOT TO RESERVE THEM.

The only time this is different is if you have more Termy units than you can reserve total.

If you reserve a tac squad instead of a Termy squad, that is a choice you make, which overrides the may always.

Kiredor wrote:If you have more than 50% of your army as terminators, i'd allow it.

If you only have like 1 unit out of 11, then you could have 6 units, one of those being the terminators.

If they are not part of the 50% of your army you chose to reserve, then you are CHOOSING NOT TO RESERVE THEM.

The only time this is different is if you have more Termy units than you can reserve total.

If you reserve a tac squad instead of a Termy squad, that is a choice you make, which overrides the may always.

I've seen plenty of armies with 2 tactical squads in drop pods, and 3 squads of terminators along with an independent character leading the army.

Technically, you aren't choosing not to reserve them. You simply haven't made that choice yet. I see you're side, and I'd play it that way, but I'm just putting out there that someone could try that argument at some point.

Lone Dragoon wrote:

Kiredor wrote:If you have more than 50% of your army as terminators, i'd allow it.

If you only have like 1 unit out of 11, then you could have 6 units, one of those being the terminators.

If they are not part of the 50% of your army you chose to reserve, then you are CHOOSING NOT TO RESERVE THEM.

The only time this is different is if you have more Termy units than you can reserve total.

If you reserve a tac squad instead of a Termy squad, that is a choice you make, which overrides the may always.

I've seen plenty of armies with 2 tactical squads in drop pods, and 3 squads of terminators along with an independent character leading the army.

Technically, you aren't choosing not to reserve them. You simply haven't made that choice yet. I see you're side, and I'd play it that way, but I'm just putting out there that someone could try that argument at some point.

And they would lose. Units that must start in reserve are ignored, units that may always be placed in reserves are being placed in reserves by choice. You are choosing not to reserve them as during deployment you have to say which units are being held in reserves, and you can only choose not to deploy half your army. So at the beginning of turn one you must have 50% of your army that can be deployed on the table.

Captain Antivas wrote:And they would lose. Units that must start in reserve are ignored, units that may always be placed in reserves are being placed in reserves by choice. You are choosing not to reserve them as during deployment you have to say which units are being held in reserves, and you can only choose not to deploy half your army. So at the beginning of turn one you must have 50% of your army that can be deployed on the table.

Actually they don't lose since half the drop pods come in on turn one they are able to bring units onto the field before the end of game turn auto loss clause. Deathwing terminators also have a similar rule.

may =/= must

Terminators are counted towards your 50%. I know that these devolve into grammar wars, but this one is pretty clear.

Lobukia wrote:may =/= must
Terminators are counted towards your 50%. I know that these devolve into grammar wars, but this one is pretty clear.

Agreed. With a caveat that I don't know the wording for Deathwing Assault, but certainly with C:SM, BA and SW the 50% limit still applies.

The trick is that while you "may always" start the Terminators in reserve, this doesn't override the 50% limitation. Here are two possible scenarios, assuming 4 units of Terminators in the army (and nothing else), with how they affect the two relevant rules.

SITUATION 1 - 4 Termie units reserved
Are you following Terminator ruling that all may start in reserve - yes.
Are you following Reserve ruling of a maximum of 50% optional reserves - no. The Terminator rule never includes the word "must".

SITUATION 2 - 2 Termie units reserved
Are you following Terminator ruling that all may start in reserve - yes. Any individual Terminator unit *may* start in reserve, you're just restricted to choosing 2 particular ones, but they are all able to reserve to begin with.
Are you following Reserve ruling of a maximum of 50% optional reserves - yes.

The first situation causes a conflict between the rules, thereby breaking them. The second situation doesn't.

Lobukia wrote:may =/= must

Terminators are counted towards your 50%. I know that these devolve into grammar wars, but this one is pretty clear.

I have 4 death wing units

I can definitely put 2 in reserves

The other 2 I choose to put in reserve - if you try to state they CANNOT start in reserve then you have broken the rule that they may ALWAYS choose to deepstrike.

Sorry Dragoon and Nos you are both wrong, if a unit is eligible to be deployed it counts towards the 50% you have to deploy, every single unit in the game is eligible to stay in reserves, Terminators are not special in this regard.

The may always DS clause does not make them ignore the 50% rule, all it does is allow them to DS in a mission that does not allow DS (I don't think any of those exist anymore).

They count toward the total, but they themselves may always be put into reserve to DS.

So, for example, if you had an all-terminator army, they can all Deep Strike. But if you had an army with six terminator units and four normal non-terminator units, they're ALL going to count toward the limit. So the maximum units you could reserve would be 5 if you wanted to reserve a mix of terminator and normal units. Or 6 if you just wanted to reserve the terminators, and deployed the normal units normally.

No Mannahnin in your example the max units in reserve is 5 no mater how you slice it. If you are eligible to deploy you are obligated to count.

may ALWAYS start in Reserve. Not all units have that rule that you are ignoring

If you try to stop the model from starting in reserve, when it has that rule, you have broken the rule

You are wrong on this

This is why I split the argument out into two situations, to make it clearer. "May always" means you always have the opportunity to put Terminators into reserve - and indeed you can do so, BUT you are still restricted to a maximum of 50%. This is the only interpretation that doesn't cause conflict, and it works because "may always" is not the same as "must". You cannot ignore the 50% restriction because the Codex wording doesn't conflict with it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:may ALWAYS start in Reserve. Not all units have that rule that you are ignoring

If you try to stop the model from starting in reserve, when it has that rule, you have broken the rule

You are wrong on this

This is really a basic english comprehension problem. May means you have the option. Must means you do not have an option. Terminators have an option to start in reserve, the rules for deployment say you must deploy 50%. These rules do not conflict. The terminator has the ability to start on the board and therefore must be included in the 50%.

The "may always" is there to override missions that do not allow reserves. I am pretty confident that it was not written in referance to the 6th edition rules on how many may go into reserves.

We are told on page 36 that units that "must" arrive by deep strike don't count. There is no way (via game rules) for me to place Drop Pods other than deep strike, therefore they do not count. Terminators can walk onto the board or be deployed in the initial deployment, they count towards the 50%.

Page 124 expands the "do not count" to units that MUST be in reserves, but terminators do not meet this either.

Deathwing may DS, but 50% must stay out of reserves. It would seem to me, in a set of rules, that must > may.

tgf wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:may ALWAYS start in Reserve. Not all units have that rule that you are ignoring

If you try to stop the model from starting in reserve, when it has that rule, you have broken the rule

You are wrong on this

This is really a basic english comprehension problem. May means you have the option. Must means you do not have an option. Terminators have an option to start in reserve, the rules for deployment say you must deploy 50%. These rules do not conflict. The terminator has the ability to start on the board and therefore must be included in the 50%.

It really isnt - well, it is, but on your side.

If you may ALWAYS start in reserve, and you try to claim they cannot start in reserve, you have broken the rule allowing them to ALWAYS start the game in reserve.

Try this: I want to put the terminators in reserve. You claim I must start them on the board. Have you just broken the rule allowing them to ALWAYS start in reserve? Yes.

Lobukia wrote:The "may always" is there to override missions that do not allow reserves. I am pretty confident that it was not written in referance to the 6th edition rules on how many may go into reserves.

We are told on page 36 that units that "must" arrive by deep strike don't count. There is no way (via game rules) for me to place Drop Pods other than deep strike, therefore they do not count. Terminators can walk onto the board or be deployed in the initial deployment, they count towards the 50%.

Page 124 expands the "do not count" to units that MUST be in reserves, but terminators do not meet this either.

Deathwing may DS, but 50% must stay out of reserves. It would seem to me, in a set of rules, that must > may.

You're right, must is greater than may. However may always is greater than cannot. Drop pods don't count towards the number, terminators do count towards the number. However, terminators with the wording "may always" can override "can choose." Remember, we do not have to place anything in deployment unless it "must" be in deployment, it is only when we are limited by the fact that we cannot put more than half of the army in, that I may ALWAYS deploy the terminators by their deep strike rule. Doesn't matter what edition of the rules it was written for, only that the wording in the current context is what matters.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

tgf wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:may ALWAYS start in Reserve. Not all units have that rule that you are ignoring

If you try to stop the model from starting in reserve, when it has that rule, you have broken the rule

You are wrong on this

This is really a basic english comprehension problem. May means you have the option. Must means you do not have an option. Terminators have an option to start in reserve, the rules for deployment say you must deploy 50%. These rules do not conflict. The terminator has the ability to start on the board and therefore must be included in the 50%.

It really isnt - well, it is, but on your side.

If you may ALWAYS start in reserve, and you try to claim they cannot start in reserve, you have broken the rule allowing them to ALWAYS start the game in reserve.

Try this: I want to put the terminators in reserve. You claim I must start them on the board. Have you just broken the rule allowing them to ALWAYS start in reserve? Yes.

The English fail is on you big and bold. May Always does not give you permission to break the must deploy 50%. It simply gives you permission to put them in reserve to deepstrike when deepstrike would otherwise not be allowed. I think at this point you are being purposefully obtuse just to troll or try and ignore a very clear rule.

Lobukia, you are correct. Units that *must* DS do not count towards the 50%.
Terminators *do* count towards the 50%.

If you have 4 flyers and 2 infantry units, you can put 4 flyers in and 1 infantry in reserves. Because the flyers are ignored.

IF you have 4 terminator units, and 2 infantry units, you can put any combination of Term and Inf units, up to 3
0-3
1-2
2-1
3-0 are all fine.

But... if you put 3-0, you have another unit of Termies that *may always be put into reserve*, if I may always do that, I may do it even in this situation. So you can also do 4-0

If you had 2 termi and 1 inf, you can still add a termi, but since it *does* count for the 50%, that one inf would have to be removed.

tgf wrote:
The English fail is on you big and bold. May Always does not give you permission to break the must deploy 50%. It simply gives you permission to put them in reserve to deepstrike when deepstrike would otherwise not be allowed. I think at this point you are being purposefully obtuse just to troll or try and ignore a very clear rule.

Actually you're mistaking the rule. There is no "must deploy 50%" rule. There is an I can reserve up to half the army rule. Big difference there. Once I reach the 50% of my army in reserve, I cannot deploy any more into reserve, not must not deploy any more into reserve. The only time the word must is used is determining the amount that can be deployed in reserve, units that "must" be kept in reserve don't count. You're adding a must where there is none, and changing the rules to suit your argument. Remember, cannot is overridden by always.

Is it just me or does the Termintaor armor only Allow you to DEEP STRIKE regarless of the mission scenario. What I am getting at is that 50% of your Terminators can be held in researve. Now how do those Terminators show up? Well they will DEEP STRIKE of course, as opposed to WALKING onto the board. So if you have:

Captain w/ command squad in Pod
3 Tacs in Pods
2 Term Squads

You would need to deploy 1 of the Terminator squads and the other may enter play via Researves and DEPLOY via DEEP STRIKING?

The other Terminator Squad (non DS) MAY Deepstrike however, you MUST deploy 50% of your non ignored units.

Dooley wrote:Is it just me or does the Termintaor armor only Allow you to DEEP STRIKE regarless of the mission scenario. What I am getting at is that 50% of your Terminators can be held in researve. Now how do those Terminators show up? Well they will DEEP STRIKE of course, as opposed to WALKING onto the board. So if you have:

Captain w/ command squad in Pod
3 Tacs in Pods
2 Term Squads

You would need to deploy 1 of the Terminator squads and the other may enter play via Researves and DEPLOY via DEEP STRIKING?

The other Terminator Squad (non DS) MAY Deepstrike however, you MUST deploy 50% of your non ignored units.

I agree with you. I see the may always as being a reference to [even if the mission doesn't let you reserve], they see it as [whenever you want to]

I can see their logic being a little dangerous. If I may ALWAYS deepstrike as they say. Well then why can't I DS all my termies on turn 1?

"I want to DS all 30 terminators now"

"But its turn 1, you can't!"

"No, the rules says may always, and I want to now"