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Say I've got a DE Voidraven bomber coming onto the table loaded up with missiles, shatterfield (S7 Large Blast) for example, and my Necron opponent has just moved a night scythe up and dumped a pile of immortals in front of it's base. Can I declare Skyfire, fire my 2 void lances at the Scythe, and fire 2 missiles also at the scythe placing the hole in the blast marker completely over the scythe's hull, but hitting the immortals underneath?

I can't find anything preventing it. Flyer rules just say that blasts can't hit them, but doesn't restrict you from firing blasts at them. Skyfire says I can only fire snap shots at other non-flyerish targets, but I'm not technically shooting at the immortals, just hitting them "accidentally". (the wording in skyfire is pretty different from the Hard to Hit that flyers have, none of the "may only be resolved as snap shots" thing)

Thoughts?

That's a really interesting thought. RAW only says that you cannot hit with blasts, etc., not that you cannot shoot them. I like it!

Why would the necrons be standing there instead of 6" away?

I don't have the rulebook to hand, but... if that wording's correct, those foot troops will be unharmed. You can still resolve the blast against the flyer, and the template will cover the models below - but it doesn't matter since you can't hit them.

Hate to be a pain, but - what's the exact wording in the rule? Is it that you can't hit, can't shoot, can't target, or something else?

The rule says you can't hit zooming fliers with template, blast, and large blast weapons. I would imagine this will be handled like blasts scattering off multilevel ruins; you shot at the flier, can't hit the flier, but because of the height difference, you get to hit nothing else, too.

-cgmckenzie

You cannot hit a zooming flier with a blast weapon. Therefore when you shoot your blast at it the blast misses, since you cannot hit it, and no one is harmed.

Super Ready wrote:I don't have the rulebook to hand, but... if that wording's correct, those foot troops will be unharmed. You can still resolve the blast against the flyer, and the template will cover the models below - but it doesn't matter since you can't hit them.

Hate to be a pain, but - what's the exact wording in the rule? Is it that you can't hit, can't shoot, can't target, or something else?

cgmckenzie wrote:The rule says you can't hit zooming fliers with template, blast, and large blast weapons. I would imagine this will be handled like blasts scattering off multilevel ruins; you shot at the flier, can't hit the flier, but because of the height difference, you get to hit nothing else, too.

-cgmckenzie

There is nothing that says that blasts fired while skyfiring can't hit models on the ground. All skyfire says is "...Unless it also has the interceptor rule it can only fire snap shots at other targets." but I'm not shooting at the guys on the ground, I'm shooting at the Flyer and hitting the guys on the ground. The different ruin level thing is a decent analogy and makes sense, but I can't find anything in the rules to support it, although I don't think you're claiming there is.

Captain Antivas wrote:You cannot hit a zooming flier with a blast weapon. Therefore when you shoot your blast at it the blast misses, since you cannot hit it, and no one is harmed.

I can't find any requirement that you need to be able to hit a target with a blast to fire a blast at it. The only instance I can see of blasts missing is scattering off the table. To me this situation seems similar to a blast that scatters completely off its intended target, you won't hit what the rest of your guns/unit were shooting at, but that doesn't mean you won't hit other nearby things if the blast marker is covering them.

You cannot hit Flyers with Blast Weapons, and you cannot Snap Fire blast weapons. If they hit the infantry, it would have had to have snap fired. Thus it could not have fired the missile.

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:You cannot hit a zooming flier with a blast weapon. Therefore when you shoot your blast at it the blast misses, since you cannot hit it, and no one is harmed.

I can't find any requirement that you need to be able to hit a target with a blast to fire a blast at it. The only instance I can see of blasts missing is scattering off the table. To me this situation seems similar to a blast that scatters completely off its intended target, you won't hit what the rest of your guns/unit were shooting at, but that doesn't mean you won't hit other nearby things if the blast marker is covering them.

You can target it all you want. But once you declare the shot and place the blast marker the shot misses because you cannot hit it.

Where in the rules does it say that it auto misses if you can't hit it (and so also won't hit anything else under the template)?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:You cannot hit Flyers with Blast Weapons, and you cannot Snap Fire blast weapons. If they hit the infantry, it would have had to have snap fired. Thus it could not have fired the missile.

Where does it say that only snap shots can hit ground models when skyfiring?

Read the Skyfire rule.

If you cannot HIT you must have Missed. There isnt a middle ground here.

Since you are sky firing and not snap firing you can fire a blast weapon a flier. You follow all the same procedures as firing at a vehicle, except when you allocate his you can't allocate to a zooming flier.

Since there are no exceptions to the normal blast rules when you skyfire all models under the blast marker suffer a hit to their unit, except the fliers since they are exempt when zooming.

You always follow normal rules and procedures unless there exceptions that apply. The only exception here is that fliers are not hit by blasts. You only hit with a blast when a blast marker is already over the model after scatter. Since there is no rule saying you can't skyfire blast weapons you follow the normal rules. Rules that concern blasts and ruins only apply when multilevel ruins are involved.

Remember in this forum we don't concern ourselves with what the rules ought to be or what their intention only. We only go with how they are written. If a faq says differently in the future then you go about things differently. Till then there is nothing in the op's gameplan that violates the rules. Though you probably want to fire the missile first, if you destroy the flier with the lances beforehand you wouldn't have a target anymore.

Every wepon on a model or unit are fired and resolved simultaneously, there is no exception for this in skyfire so the order it is fired does not matter.

You can not hit the flyer with the template, but anything it scatters over should be hit as normal right?

You miss the flyer, but the template still fired and scattered.

If you fire at a vehicle in the ground with the template and the blast marker scatters 8 inches off the vehicle, you have missed the vehicle, but you still have hit anything under the template.

DeathReaper wrote:You can not hit the flyer with the template, but anything it scatters over should be hit as normal right?

You miss the flyer, but the template still fired and scattered.

If you fire at a vehicle in the ground with the template and the blast marker scatters 8 inches off the vehicle, you have missed the vehicle, but you still have hit anything under the template.

If you cant hit something you cannot target it. At least that's how I read it.

Hitting and targeting are completely separate in the rules.

I can target anything in range, but can only hit it on a 3+ (for a tax squad marine).

cgmckenzie wrote:The rule says you can't hit zooming fliers with template, blast, and large blast weapons. I would imagine this will be handled like blasts scattering off multilevel ruins; you shot at the flier, can't hit the flier, but because of the height difference, you get to hit nothing else, too.

That is totally how I'd play it but it's not supported by the rules.

I'm not on the side of auto-missing here - just because one of the models under the blast marker cannot be hit does not mean that no models under the template can be hit.

Scott-S6 wrote:

cgmckenzie wrote:The rule says you can't hit zooming fliers with template, blast, and large blast weapons. I would imagine this will be handled like blasts scattering off multilevel ruins; you shot at the flier, can't hit the flier, but because of the height difference, you get to hit nothing else, too.

That is totally how I'd play it but it's not supported by the rules.

I'm not on the side of auto-missing here - just because one of the models under the blast marker cannot be hit does not mean that no models under the template can be hit.

You don't just have to consider length from on unit to the other, you also have to consider the height. The zooming flyer moves too fast to be hit by the explosion but the explosion still happened up in the air.

Captain Antivas wrote: you also have to consider the height. The zooming flyer moves too fast to be hit by the explosion but the explosion still happened up in the air.

Page reference?

Flier rules state that any model that can fit under the flier can be placed under it. Ruins with different levels say that if you aim for the top floor the lower floors are unharmed. We can deduce that fliers are literally above the ground, and if it applies to ruins on a higher level why not fliers?

Captain Antivas wrote:Flier rules state that any model that can fit under the flier can be placed under it. Ruins with different levels say that if you aim for the top floor the lower floors are unharmed. We can deduce that fliers are literally above the ground, and if it applies to ruins on a higher level why not fliers?

Because the rules do not say that they are on different levels, so they are on the same level.

Ruins state they have different levels, open terrain does not.

Page six covers templates. Since Skyfire doesnt say otherwise, the normal rules apply to those templates.

Antivas: Deduce != making up rules.
Now, it is a possible houserule though. One should DK to fire its incinerator up to third level of ruins if one followed that logic though.

Captain Antivas wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:

cgmckenzie wrote:The rule says you can't hit zooming fliers with template, blast, and large blast weapons. I would imagine this will be handled like blasts scattering off multilevel ruins; you shot at the flier, can't hit the flier, but because of the height difference, you get to hit nothing else, too.

That is totally how I'd play it but it's not supported by the rules.

I'm not on the side of auto-missing here - just because one of the models under the blast marker cannot be hit does not mean that no models under the template can be hit.

You don't just have to consider length from on unit to the other, you also have to consider the height. The zooming flyer moves too fast to be hit by the explosion but the explosion still happened up in the air.

The ruins rules have zero to do with fliers.

I totally agree that it's logical and it would be a very sensible houserule but it absolutely isn't supported by the rules.

Eh, it probably is more of a house rule, I didn't think of that. That is just what my gaming group does. We are against house rules, and so if you can deduce a common theme it passes. Maybe there is more house ruling going on than we thought.

This is irrelevant anyway because both the blast and large blast markers are too small to hit anything outside of the flyer base.

McNinja wrote:This is irrelevant anyway because both the blast and large blast markers are too small to hit anything outside of the flyer base.

Unless they scatter.....