Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Captain with terminator armor (2+/4++) with squad of terminators (2+/5++)

So, question came up tonight, are they mixed saves or not?

I said if taking normal armor saves, no... however if taking invulns, yes. Since shooter can pick the order you roll, I didn't see any conflict with this or with the rules. My basic logic: if you're rolling the same save (2+), its not mixed. If you aren't rolling the same (4++ vs 5++) then its mixed.

Now, I'm curious what you guys think: Did I make the right call or should 21 bolter wounds be treated as mixed saves for the above unit?

When did a captain's terminator invulnerable save change?

All Captains come with an Iron Halo.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:When did a captain's terminator invulnerable save change?

At least 5th ed, not sure, don't have older codicies for SM with me right now. Are DA the same?

Oops forgot... I play Dark Angels...

Why is the debate about mixed invul saves when your scenario involves bolter fire?

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Oops forgot... I play Dark Angels...

Why is the debate about mixed invul saves when your scenario involves bolter fire?

They HAVE different saves (4++ vs 5++), my position is that it is the saves that are being rolled that factor into mixed saves not the possible saves possessed.

The follow up to this is: if the squad in the OP takes 5 plasma wounds and 9 bolter wounds, should they roll the 5 plasma as mixed saves (when ever the shooter asks for those) and the 9 bolter as same saves, or does the presense of the 5 plasma make the entire phase mixed saves?

Again, I say (and said) that if rulling bolters, treat as same, then when rolling plasma, treat as mixed. There was some disagreement tonight (I wasn't running the termies, my opponent was, so I was actually trying to help him) from observers, and I just want to make sure I'm not forcing an incorrect/unstainable ruling on my club.

Yes, I agree. Use the save you are rolling, not anyother save. Otherwise you get back to wound allocation stuff, as chucking a few storm shilds in will give you a diffrent save again.

They only have different saves if you make them have different saves. You choose if you are using your normal save or your invuln after taking the wound. If you choose to just use the 2+ armor save then you are all the same armor group. If you use the invuln you are different.

Gloomfang wrote:They only have different saves if you make them have different saves. You choose if you are using your normal save or your invuln after taking the wound. If you choose to just use the 2+ armor save then you are all the same armor group. If you use the invuln you are different.

Different for only those wounds that you roll using different saves?

I don't see any qualifier in the sentence otbher than "different". So when it comes to allocating wounds and taking saving throws it goes...

Does the target unit all have the same armor, invulnerable, or cover saving throw? Yes, then allocate as normal. No, allocate per mixed saves rules.

It sounds slow, but by using their example of fast dice it goes pretty quick still.

It shouldn't make a difference as to the outcome (i.e. the outcomes are functionally equivalent) to use the different armour saves process on armour saves that are all the same (if it is done correctly), so I would have no objection to the different armour saves process being used (unless it was being done for slow play reasons).

The trick to seeing this is if you roll all the armour saves together you just determine that it pings off SOMEONEs armour - it just doesn't matter whos, the reason for rolling in the different armour case is that it matters whether the target changes (which may occur through lookout sir or model death)

Gloomfang wrote:They only have different saves if you make them have different saves. You choose if you are using your normal save or your invuln after taking the wound. If you choose to just use the 2+ armor save then you are all the same armor group. If you use the invuln you are different.

You HAVE to use your best save; you cannot choose to take a 5++ rather than a 2+

Damn - Nos beat me to it. But yes, you HAVE to take your best save out of those available from armour, invulnerable and cover.
So in this instance you would have to treat all the 2+ saves as the same and allocate after saves have been taken. I'm not sure on the ruling if there were any weapons forcing the invulnerable save as well, but for simplicity's sake I'd treat those as separate - giving them their own wound pool to allocate from.

Super Ready wrote:Damn - Nos beat me to it. But yes, you HAVE to take your best save out of those available from armour, invulnerable and cover.
So in this instance you would have to treat all the 2+ saves as the same and allocate after saves have been taken. I'm not sure on the ruling if there were any weapons forcing the invulnerable save as well, but for simplicity's sake I'd treat those as separate - giving them their own wound pool to allocate from.

Choose was a poor choice of words. I just meant that they are the same armor group if you roll the same save, not if they have different saves. For example if you had a unit in where all the troops are have a 4+ armor save and an IC who just has a 4++ Invuln and the unit gets hit with an AP5 weapon, they are all the same armor group for speed rolling because you need to roll a 5+ to save. It is a function of the target number, not the armor worn.

I can see where you are coming from, but with the way it's worded i still believe that unless every single model has the exact same value to all three saves then you allocate wounds and take saves.

The second paragraph on pg.15(Taking Saving Throws) tells us we can attempt a save if we have one, refering to Saving Throws heading on pg.16 to see how those work. Now further on down the page in 15 you have the Mixed Saves heading(bottom left paragraph). It says tells us "If the unit contains several different saving throws, you'll need to follow this process instead...". No other qualifier to this situation than "different". So even if you won't be using the "different" saving throw you still use the Mixed Saves rules.

Mortikye wrote: I can see where you are coming from, but with the way it's worded i still believe that unless every single model has the exact same value to all three saves then you allocate wounds and take saves.

The second paragraph on pg.15(Taking Saving Throws) tells us we can attempt a save if we have one, refering to Saving Throws heading on pg.16 to see how those work. Now further on down the page in 15 you have the Mixed Saves heading(bottom left paragraph). It says tells us "If the unit contains several different saving throws, you'll need to follow this process instead...". No other qualifier to this situation than "different". So even if you won't be using the "different" saving throw you still use the Mixed Saves rules.

By diffrent they mean "Would have had to roll a dice with a diffrent number to pass."

For example:
With my group of 4(1W) guys in 4+ armor with the IC(2W) with a 4++ Save. Now lets say that for this example the order from closest to the shooter is Grunt, IC, Grunt, Grunt.

They all get hit with an AP5 weapon that wounds 6 times. I roll 6 dice needing 4s or better and get 3 failed saves. I now have to allocate those 3 wounds starting from the closest model. I remove the grunt closest to me first. The IC is next and the player can choose to LOS! the unsaved wound. He choses to LOS! and one of the other grunts dies from the unsaved wound. As the IC is still the closest model I allocate the next wound to him again. He decides to LOS! again, but fails and looses a wound.

Now lets say they get hit with an AP3 weapon that wounds 6 times. Now I just remove the closest grunt as he has no armor. I then have to choose to make my IC take invuln saves or LOS! rolls. He decides to go for the LOS! rolls and passes both of them and the two other grunts die. Now there are 3 wounds still to be allocated and the IC is the only target so he rolls 3 Invuln saves.

Make sense?

No, if they meant to say that theu would have. Instead they used a simple qualifier of different. If it's not the same it is different.

Your supporting evidence doesn't support you:
" "If the unit contains several different saving throws, you'll need to follow this process instead...".

They don't contain different saving throws. Each model only gets 1 save for a particular wound, thus it only has one saving throw. If they all need a 4+, it is the same saving throw regardless if it comes from armor, invuln, or cover.

coredump wrote:Your supporting evidence doesn't support you:
" "If the unit contains several different saving throws, you'll need to follow this process instead...".

They don't contain different saving throws. Each model only gets 1 save for a particular wound, thus it only has one saving throw. If they all need a 4+, it is the same saving throw regardless if it comes from armor, invuln, or cover.

I agree completely with that assessment.

I was playing a game and had my Orks with a Nob and Big Mek w/ a KFF in a unit of boyz. Both the Mek and the Nob had eavy armor.

I got shot by a bunch of Paladins firing Psycannons (AP4) and Storm Bolters (AP5).

The firing player gets to choose which of these wounds to resolve first. As my Mek and Nob were near the front of the pack, he chose the AP4 stuff first, which meant that all of my saves were a 5+ cover save (since I couldn't take the 4+ armor save against the AP4 shots). Therefore, I was just able to pick up all the Psycannon wounds and roll them together, with each failure going against the closest model as normal, and any going onto the Mek or Nob being eligible to be reallocated via 'Look Out Sir' as normal.

However, had he decided to resolve the AP5 shots first, then I would be dealing with two different saves, a 5+ cover save for the boyz and a 4+ save for the Mek & Nob, in which case I'd have to use the rules for mixed saves instead (and allocate wounds before rolling saves).

Its only if the saves are different against those wounds that you allocate differently.

Against bolter fire, everyone has the same save so you can tank with your captain. If they ignore your armor saves then we get different saves because of differeing invulns.

coredump wrote:Your supporting evidence doesn't support you:
" "If the unit contains several different saving throws, you'll need to follow this process instead...".

They don't contain different saving throws. Each model only gets 1 save for a particular wound, thus it only has one saving throw. If they all need a 4+, it is the same saving throw regardless if it comes from armor, invuln, or cover.

Actually it does. You must be forgetting that GW words there stuff in a fully literal sense. For it to work the way you guys want it to it would have to read...

"If the unit will be using several different saving throws.."

Key word 'will'. Did you argue that the wording for Warptime allowed you to pick which dice to reroll instead of all of them like it said? One of the purposes of focus fire is to help deny your opponent that ability. All save values are determined before shooting/slashing starts, so those are set. When you go to allocate wounds you determine whether or not the target unit is a mixed save or normal save unit. Does the unit contain different save value? If that's a yes then you go with the mixed save rules, which when combined with fast rolling it really works out the same. There is only a difference when you have different ap values.

Mortikye wrote:
Actually it does. You must be forgetting that GW words there stuff in a fully literal sense. For it to work the way you guys want it to it would have to read...

"If the unit will be using several different saving throws.."

Key word 'will'. Did you argue that the wording for Warptime allowed you to pick which dice to reroll instead of all of them like it said? One of the purposes of focus fire is to help deny your opponent that ability. All save values are determined before shooting/slashing starts, so those are set. When you go to allocate wounds you determine whether or not the target unit is a mixed save or normal save unit. Does the unit contain different save value? If that's a yes then you go with the mixed save rules, which when combined with fast rolling it really works out the same. There is only a difference when you have different ap values.

It isn't even relatively the same speed. Not even close.

If I have a Space Marine Chaplain with a 3+/4+ and he's in with a squad of regular 3+ save marines and the unit suffers 20 boltgun (AP5) wounds, there is literally no reason to roll the saves as mixed armor. It only drastically slows things down when there is absolutely no change in statistics or gameplay by rolling all the saves together and then applying wounds (and taking look out sir after the fact in this case).

The simple fact is, if all the saving throws being taken against a group of wounds are exactly the same, then regardless of what saves the models in the unit might have access to makes absolutely zero difference to the statistical outcome. No matter whether you allocate first and then roll saving throws or make the saving throws first and then allocate the wounds you will lose exactly the same number of models.

So rather than arguing about semantics, just look at the whole point of regular casualty removal vs. mixed save removal and it becomes crystal clear when one is applied and the other isn't.

Mortikye wrote:[

Actually it does. You must be forgetting that GW words there stuff in a fully literal sense. For it to work the way you guys want it to it would have to read...

"If the unit will be using several different saving throws.."

I am taking them in a 'fully literal sense'

All save values are determined before shooting/slashing starts, so those are set.

You made this up. What armor/invuln a model has is set, but the "Saving throws" are not determined, and in fact *can't* be determined, until hits and wounds are determined. Further, the 'saving throws' will be different depending on the weapon/ammo inflicting the wound. (Similarly, cover saves cant be determined until after shots are fired.)

When you go to allocate wounds you determine whether or not the target unit is a mixed save or normal save unit. Does the unit contain different save value?

Save "Value", I thought we were being literal? Where do they discuss save value?

As your quote states clearly, they do not say "different armor" nor even "different armor saves"; but it details "different saving throws", and each model only gets to make one saving throw (p.15). So you look and see what is the saving throw for that wound pool. If they are all using a 5+, then they all have the same saving throw. It doesn't matter why they have a 5+, because the saving throw they will be taking is the same.

Further, you method means that if I shoot devourers at marines. (AP- vs. 3+ save) but some are in the open, and some are behind razor wire, and some are in a crater... I must treat them all as mixed armor....??? Eventhough they will all be using a 3+ save, and all be using their own actual armor save...?? Not only does that not follow the rules for "mixes saving *throws*', it also doesn't make any sense.


If that's a yes then you go with the mixed save rules, which when combined with fast rolling it really works out the same. There is only a difference when you have different ap values.