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6th edition haven't made anything weaker in my opinion (though FNP/FC had a slight change), it has increased the validity of other units and made 2+ saves, boltguns and IC's something to consider moving forward. If I make any mistakes or if you disagree with any points please let me know.

The following are opinions have on the power changes of particular units in the BA codex, I will only be touching on the units I use heavily and feel I can give good insight and will avoid vehicles for the time. For some context I have been a big fan of RAS, Devestators, Scouts as my core lists.

HQ. IC's gain more durability this edition and are going to be even more HEROIC (rawr) in this edition. Normal Tycho, Astorath and Librarians come out ahead here.

Librarian. Power remains the same.
Psykers seem to be the new shiny in this codex, with access to both codex powers and access to the new general power pools psykers are going to find increased utility and remain our most cost effective choice. Terminator/SS Librarians may find increased use with the change to power weapons, and may prove to be even scarier then they where before.

Captains. Power remains the same.
Anything they can do vanilla marines can do better, the idea of Bike/2+3++/PF beat stick does seem appealing but it isnt our best choice.

Tycho (normal). Power increase.
Three parts lead to his power increase. 2+ armor save changes, ability to fire his Sternguard weapon while on the move, and that his CCW deadmans fist is a unique power weapon and just ignores the CC armor changes. He is a solid choice in what I feel will be a increase use of mobile sternguard units (a old favorite of mine)

Reschlarch. Power increased slightly.
Same deal as the captian, but gives fearless which saw a small buff.

Mephiston. Power remains the same.
Still a huge beat stick, while you can take other powers now, his base set remains a strong set.

Astorath. Power increase.
His axe is a unique power weapon (a non-axe oddly), 2+ save and opens more use for DC which saw a buff.

Dante. Power remains the same.
His ability to make sanguine guard scoring is usefull with the 2+ changes

Seth. Power lessened a bit.
Not having 2+ armor save really hurts Seth in this edition.

Honor Guard. Power remains the same.
Still a highly modifiable unit, will find use in any edition.

Elites The elite slots are going to become even more hotly contested then they once where with the Sanguinary guard, sternguard and terminators gaining ground.

Sanguinary Guard. Power increased slightly.
With 2+ armor they increase their CC punch, but still vulnerable to plasma fire, dual plasma pistol characters may be a issue.

Terminator Squads. Power increase.
Assault terminators become even scarier with the 2+ save changes and normal terminators gain added durability from the same change. Over-watch change makes regular terminators somewhat improved.

Techmarine. Power increased slightly.
I am a big fan of suicide techmarines since I use cover quite often with my devestators and scouts, however 2+ save gives his added durability.

Sternguard Veteran Squad. Power increase.
I have been a fan of BA sternguard with a priest taking a midfield position and holding it in 5th ed. With the ability to move and fire at max range they have had a nice power increase, being able to reach a target 36'' away in one turn. Also over-watch + 2 base attacks is quite useful with them. While not becoming a beast in any one area, they are generally more useful.

Sang Priest. Power remains the same.
While the nerf to FC and FNP does affect these units, the buffs they provide are still very very useful. Sang Priest in terminator armor will still prove to be a scary beat stick.

Troops Death Company gains HUUUUGEE ground and Scouts gain added utility.

Tac Squad. Slight power increase.
Rapid fire changes and snap fire increases there ability, though still seems like a weaker choice vs other choices.

Death Company Large Power Increase.
Rage (as I recall) no long causes a loss of control but +2 attacks on the charge vs +1. While a 5man JP squad is the same cost RAS each unit will have 5 attacks on the charge with rerolls to attacks and wounds if with a chaplin... scary scary stuff. Boltgun DC may see some increased use... either way regaining control of DC = usable death(ish) star.

Scout Squad Slight power increase.
The ability to pick out your target with sniper rifles is huge, if you can take out that one ap2 weapon you are laughing.

Assault Squad Power remains the same.
Hammer of wrath adds ability and re-rolling assault range is also useful... rules end up being favorable here.

Fast Attack Bikes see a increase in ability, while not as good as vanilla marines it is a useful buff.

Vanguard Veteran Squad. Power loss.
Did not gain ground like the sanguinary guard or death company, while still useful the pure DOA lists are gone.

Bikes. Power increase.
With bikes being a straight 5 toughness and hammer of wrath bikes gain buffs all around... for me this means my MM attack bikes will see a return and not fear being instakilled. Bloodrodeo lists may see a return.

Heavy Support

Devestators Power increased slightly.
The changes to how heavy weapons work is nice here, ability to buy fortifications for these units is a nice addition.

I disagree with Vanguard. I think they got a huge buff. They are currently the only unit in the game that in assault after arriving from reserves. They scatter d6 inches, and then assault 2d6" So they should be able to get thier HI off more often than not. Put a Power Ax and Melta bomb instead of a Fist and you save 5pts.

I'm torn on Priest. FNP is a wash in this system, only on 5+, but you get it for more things. The thing I like is even though they are an IC, you can refuse challenges and they can not take wounds in CC. This was the problem with them in the past. They get into BtB and died after one assault. Now they have the ability to stick around. Of course, you will still never put up grades on them as you want them cheap as possible.

Also Brother Cubolo got extremely powerful as a bullet sponge. Look I have a 3+, 2+FNP, and if it ignores FNP, I can 2+ LOS the wound.

jbunny wrote:I disagree with Vanguard. I think they got a huge buff. They are currently the only unit in the game that in assault after arriving from reserves. They scatter d6 inches, and then assault 2d6" So they should be able to get thier HI off more often than not. Put a Power Ax and Melta bomb instead of a Fist and you save 5pts.

I disagree - all similar units just got worse. That doesn't make the Vanguard suddenly better at their job, it just makes them the only option if you still want to use that tactic. They're still overpriced for their results.

When a unit gains something, and loses nothing then that is normally seen as a win. Being able to assault 2d6 instead of 6 is a big advantage. VV have one role. Come in on turn 2 and assault/tie up the heavy weapons.

Now they come in on a 3+, rerollable, which means they come in earlier, they can assault futher. That is a buff. Please tell me where they got nurfed?

Oh and they get the free hit at Int 10 on the charge, another addition. Yes snap fire hurts, but with 3+ armour, and hopefully a Priest nearby FNP, they should be able to not lose any models. After all they should be chraging small heavy weapon squads or tanks.

jbunny wrote:When a unit gains something, and loses nothing then that is normally seen as a win. Being able to assault 2d6 instead of 6 is a big advantage. VV have one role. Come in on turn 2 and assault/tie up the heavy weapons.

Now they come in on a 3+, rerollable, which means they come in earlier, they can assault futher. That is a buff. Please tell me where they got nurfed?

Oh and they get the free hit at Int 10 on the charge, another addition. Yes snap fire hurts, but with 3+ armour, and hopefully a Priest nearby FNP, they should be able to not lose any models. After all they should be chraging small heavy weapon squads or tanks.

Because just like they can charge farther, they can also botch the charge. No need to be condescending either, especially since you didn't seem to notice that 2d6 charge both has positives and negatives rather than a straight buff. That hardly constitutes a "huge buff".

The interceptor keyword doesn't help them either.

jbunny wrote:

Oh and they get the free hit at Int 10 on the charge, another addition.

I believe this is incorrect. The new Blood Angels FAQ states that VV counts as having used their jump packs in the movement phase when using the Heroic Intervention rule. This would prevent them from gaining the benefits of assaulting with their Jump Packs.

I have always found the VV to be one of the more risky choices in a BA list. While true they have the potential to be a huge headache (and run them cheap), overwatch and there cost kinda scare me off them a little still.

I am curious though VV vs New Death Company in a 5 man unit. Who can cause more damage for the points spent?

As to never upgrading Priests, I find 15 points towards a PW used to be a fair investment. In regards to my use it would be a priest in a sterguard unit with tycho, so the PW on the priest would be a CC backup plan.

Librarian. Power remains the same.
Disagree. Challenges are going to be an integral part of 6th, something every list designer seems to overlook because for now they still think they’re in 5th. Libbies are going to be a massive liability in that sense, because they strike at the same time as anyone else, they have t4 and no invuln save, which just won’t cut it. They’ll be good for utility, but they their weapon isn’t as good and they’ll suffer in challenges.

Captains. Power remains the same.
No, they should see their stock rising as an alternative to Librarians. This will be the smart option for anyone who wants a reliable option to fend off challenges at a low point cost. They aren’t at all the same as in 5th. They’re the same as Brotherhood Champions in the GK codex; A unit you’d never choose in 5th, but you’ll need to get used to if you want to be competitive in 6th. I5 is going to be a super stat that won't be readily available with the FC nerf, 3 wounds will be a good benchmark of a good challenge character and a 4+ invuln is wonderful at 100 points. That being said, I suspect the'll be the smart choice in jumper armies, while footsloggers will be able to benefit from other characters.

Mephiston. Power remains the same.
Really? So not being able to deal with terminators anymore is a “the same” somehow? I'm not really seeing a lot of use for a 250point character that can't reliably take out a unit like terminators, who look to be pretty common in 6th.

Death Company Large Power Increase.
I wouldn’t call it large. They’re around the cost of a terminator when given jump packs and equipment, but with a 3+ save and can still be insta-killed by anything more powerful than a plasmagun. At the same time, assaulting from vehicles got nerfed, which means you won’t be using cheap transports to counter the effect of how terribly priced they are with jump packs. They’re not a bad unit, but they’re not cheap and good, which is what you’re looking for. They’re expensive but good.

Assault Squad Power remains the same.
This is my biggest issue with 6th. I’ve played 30-40 ASM lists for a year now and they’re considerably weaker. Their sargeants are a liability because of challenges, no wound allocation makes upgrades risky, FNP is on a 4+ rather than a 5+ and assaulting is slightly more unreliable. Added to that, the first thing a good BA player learns to do is create coversaves, which got nerfed as well.

This is how an assault army works in 6th:

You have at least one turn of moving where you’re taking more wounds than before. You have overwatch which is another set of wounds. Then because of the FC nerf if youre hitting at the same time as other marine armies, taking more wounds. Then at some point you inevitably reach that single character with 2-3 power weapon attacks, where this is an actual advantage. The important thing is this; 6th is full of small arms fire, not powerfists, I wish people would realize this by now. That one sargeant with a powerfist isn't the threat to your assault marines. The large number of shots/CC hits you're going to take on the other hand, is.

Anyway, whenever I read one of these posts, I feel like I’m reading someone who hasn’t really understood that we’re not playing 5th anymore.

Ricter wrote:

jbunny wrote:I disagree with Vanguard. I think they got a huge buff. They are currently the only unit in the game that in assault after arriving from reserves. They scatter d6 inches, and then assault 2d6" So they should be able to get thier HI off more often than not. Put a Power Ax and Melta bomb instead of a Fist and you save 5pts.

I disagree - all similar units just got worse. That doesn't make the Vanguard suddenly better at their job, it just makes them the only option if you still want to use that tactic. They're still overpriced for their results.

Well, if you take 2 or 3 Vanguard squads (5 men with power fist), they can work great.
Recently, in 5th, I played with my DoA against mech BA. All my squads were held in reserve. At the beginning of the game, he moved his tanks over 6'' so that my Vets could only hit on 6+ in cc after arrival and charging thanks to HI. The result were several glancing hits, especial to his Vindicator. Now the Vets hit at 3+ or better. Bye bye Vindicator.

You should mention Tycho against orks now is amazingly awesome. You can get a third more dead orks with sternguard firing for example.

Stoffer wrote:Librarian. Power remains the same.
Disagree. Challenges are going to be an integral part of 6th, something every list designer seems to overlook because for now they still think they’re in 5th. Libbies are going to be a massive liability in that sense, because they strike at the same time as anyone else, they have t4 and no invuln save, which just won’t cut it. They’ll be good for utility, but they their weapon isn’t as good and they’ll suffer in challenges.

Captains. Power remains the same.
No, they should see their stock rising as an alternative to Librarians. This will be the smart option for anyone who wants a reliable option to fend off challenges at a low point cost. They aren’t at all the same as in 5th. They’re the same as Brotherhood Champions in the GK codex; A unit you’d never choose in 5th, but you’ll need to get used to if you want to be competitive in 6th. I5 is going to be a super stat that won't be readily available with the FC nerf, 3 wounds will be a good benchmark of a good challenge character and a 4+ invuln is wonderful at 100 points. That being said, I suspect the'll be the smart choice in jumper armies, while footsloggers will be able to benefit from other characters.

Mephiston. Power remains the same.
Really? So not being able to deal with terminators anymore is a “the same” somehow? I'm not really seeing a lot of use for a 250point character that can't reliably take out a unit like terminators, who look to be pretty common in 6th.

I cant argue too much, valid points on the Assault and DC (though FNP I don't feel got overly nerfed as just modified).

On the Librarian vs Captian issue, I think this will be a ongoing debate for awhile. Librarian have been given greater utility and people will find ways to muck about with challenges. In addition while costly you can outfit a librarian to be a terminator to help circumvent some of the liability. However in the BA codex I am finding it hard to see why the captain would be picked. For 30 points more you can take a reclusiarch, who comes with a PW, grants fearless and rerolling attacks, and Tycho is 75 points more. Our captians lack the tastier options of he vanilla marine codex.

Mephiston hasn't changed that much, he was never really about taking out that huge MC or terminator blob (which he could possibly do) he is a bully, he excels at taking out weaker units and boxes. He in my eyes places the same as the last, avoid the terminators and take out the rest.

hazal wrote:Librarian. Power remains the same.
Psykers seem to be the new shiny in this codex, with access to both codex powers and access to the new general power pools psykers are going to find increased utility and remain our most cost effective choice. Terminator/SS Librarians may find increased use with the change to power weapons, and may prove to be even scarier then they where before.

Worse actually, since psychic hoods were nerfed. Still necessary for psychic-centered armies though.

hazal wrote:Captains. Power remains the same.
Anything they can do vanilla marines can do better, the idea of Bike/2+3++/PF beat stick does seem appealing but it isnt our best choice.

Sure, Vanilla captains are better, but they're now actually a decent choice due to the addition of challenges. I'd say they got better.

hazal wrote:Mephiston. Power remains the same.
Still a huge beat stick, while you can take other powers now, his base set remains a strong set.

He actually got worse, AP3 makes him worse against a lot of targets he could have mulched previously. And Challenges cause him to focus all his attacks on 1 model each turn.

hazal wrote:Sang Priest. Power remains the same.
While the nerf to FC and FNP does affect these units, the buffs they provide are still very very useful. Sang Priest in terminator armor will still prove to be a scary beat stick.

imho, they got weaker. They used to be a must-take, now you could conceivably just leave them out.

How do people feel about BA gunlines at this point with the changes to Assualt troops? Max devestators, tacticals and priests and sit tight... keeping a captian + scouts on bikes as a counter assault?

Andilus Greatsword wrote:
He actually got worse, AP3 makes him worse against a lot of targets he could have mulched previously. And Challenges cause him to focus all his attacks on 1 model each turn.

Yup. A lot of enemies, especailly horde, can challenge him into obscurity. And there's plenty of units that can kill him in an all out fight for fewer or as many points.

As has been mentioned, the biggest nerf to BA is the cover save changes - not only is 5+ now default, but the ability to target models not in cover puts an end to the rediculouslness that was cover in 5th edition. Add the FNP nerf to that, plus not assaulting out of vehicles (goodbye razor spam) and BA got knocked down from top tier to mid tier.

Rahhh! death company blew up a land raider with an infernus pistol!

I was very iffy on the new fnp rules but it was hilarious watching my buddies face as I passed 5 feel no pain saves against Asrubel Vect in close combat. Priceless.

I've found that the changed FnP helps survive against things my Marines shouldn't be fighting, but made them worse at fighting what should be their ideal foes. Couple that with the Furious Charge nerf and ASM are no longer a safe bet to beat other MEQ.

Tack on the random charge length, overwatch, and the ruling about not neing able to use a jump pack to move and assault and I think bike are now head and shoulders above jump infantry when it comes to assault troops.

Bikes are merely harder to kill. The I10 hit is nice, but when all is said and done, in assault bikers are still only toughness 5 tactical marines.

To punch through enemies in assault you still need volume of attacks, and for that your best choice are death company. Asault marine +2 points gives you WS5, 2A+1(+2 for charging), the option of taking bolters and shooting stuff as you walk, and of course fearless, furious charge, and feel no pain. They also have the option of power weapons (including axes) fists and thunder hammers, though you probably don't want to overload on weapon upgrades.

I'm seriously considering allying a Blood Angel librarian (on bike) and a large chunk of death company to my bikers. I'm not quite sure how to justify it with fluff though. Perhaps "an alien psyker did it."

Ricter wrote:

jbunny wrote:When a unit gains something, and loses nothing then that is normally seen as a win. Being able to assault 2d6 instead of 6 is a big advantage. VV have one role. Come in on turn 2 and assault/tie up the heavy weapons.

Now they come in on a 3+, rerollable, which means they come in earlier, they can assault futher. That is a buff. Please tell me where they got nurfed?

Oh and they get the free hit at Int 10 on the charge, another addition. Yes snap fire hurts, but with 3+ armour, and hopefully a Priest nearby FNP, they should be able to not lose any models. After all they should be chraging small heavy weapon squads or tanks.

Because just like they can charge farther, they can also botch the charge. No need to be condescending either, especially since you didn't seem to notice that 2d6 charge both has positives and negatives rather than a straight buff. That hardly constitutes a "huge buff".

The interceptor keyword doesn't help them either.

There is nothing condescending in my post. Just me stating things I believe to be true. Now, I will admit I forgot that hammer does not work because you can't use the JP in both moving and assault. But that extra attack is just bonus.

As for assault range, yes you can roll lower than a 6, but you are just as likely to roll higher than a 6. In fact the average is 7, so on average you are assaulting futher, granted it is only 1" more. But when you are deep striking close to a unit, and only scattering d6, and assaulting 2d6 you still have a good chance of making contact. When I deepstike close to a unit I might be braver than most, but I like to be around 3" away from the unit. Now worst case is I scatter a full 6" directly away from the unit. That would put me 9" away. So Assuming for this purpose any scatter is directly away, I would need a 9 on 2d6. The odds of me needing a 9 and not making it is 8%. Last edition the odds of not making assault on not making an assault was 33%

Math so others can correct me if I'm wrong (Big possibility)

5th Ed. You have a .666 chance of scatter, and then a 50% chance to roll an amount that would put you more than 6" away. 3" start and then a 4+ to put you 7" away. That that comes out to a .333 chance of it happening.

6th. You have an .111 percent change of scattering max distance putting you 9" away. Now needing a 9+ on 2d6, you have a .277 chance of it happening leaving a .7222 chance of not happening, times the chance of full scatter and you get a .08 of max scatter and not rolling enough to assault.

I did assume any scatter would in the worst possible direction not causing a mishap. I feel the chance of mishap washes with the chances of max scatter but on a path that leaves you closer than 6" away.