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BCB Page 423: Dominate : "... malediction ... whilst the power is in effect, the target unit must pass a Leadership test each time it attempts to MOVE, shoot, run..."

BCB Page 76, Vehicles, Leadership and Morales :

... vehicle never take MORALE check for any reason" - its says MORALE not Leadership
Page 29 - "Morale check are a specific kind of Leadership test"

BCB page 7, Automatic pass and Fail

" ... if the model has a characteristic of 0 or "-" it automatically fails the test.

BCB page 80, Flyers
.... if a Zooming Flyer is froced to move less than 18" in its own Movement phase, its automatically Wrecked"


Conclusion : Cast Dominate on Zooming Flyer, No LD value = auto fail (don't get confuse with Morale check!) = Flyer can't move = Wrecked.

How you see this? Please Quote relevant BCB rule as a counter argument.Thanks.

Vehicles do not have a Leadership of "0" or "-". Therefore they do not autofail. Since there is no number for them to roll equal to or under, they can neither pass nor fail and the game stops.

Happyjew wrote:Vehicles do not have a Leadership of "0" or "-". Therefore they do not autofail. Since there is no number for them to roll equal to or under, they can neither pass nor fail and the game stops.

Not really, BCB page 4: "The Most Important Rule" - roll off, so auto kill in 50% cases

god.ra wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Vehicles do not have a Leadership of "0" or "-". Therefore they do not autofail. Since there is no number for them to roll equal to or under, they can neither pass nor fail and the game stops.

Not really, BCB page 4: "The Most Important Rule" - roll off, so auto kill in 50% cases

Yeah, no. "The Most Important Rule" doesn't even being to apply, because you can't even legally chose a characteristic to test on that the model does not have in its printed profile.

It does not have a 0 or a '-'. It doesn't even have the characteristic to attempt the test. It's an illegal target because it does not have the stat to being with. It would be like casting Haemorrhage on it (which, fyi, both say "target").

Look under the first bullet point of Characteristic Tests; There is no relevant characteristic in the model's profile. The unit has no printed stat in this regard, so it is an invalid target.

I think this may be reaching for an answer to flyers that just isn't there. Especially when you consider that "vehicle never take MORALE check for any reason" is listed under the heading "Vehicles, leadership and morale".

I'm not saying you're right or wrong here but since there is no rule one way or another here you're going to have a very difficult time getting anyone to agree with it.

EDITED FOR DUPLICATE.

djdarknoise wrote:

god.ra wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Vehicles do not have a Leadership of "0" or "-". Therefore they do not autofail. Since there is no number for them to roll equal to or under, they can neither pass nor fail and the game stops.

Not really, BCB page 4: "The Most Important Rule" - roll off, so auto kill in 50% cases

Yeah, no. "The Most Important Rule" doesn't even being to apply, because you can't even legally chose a characteristic to test on that the model does not have in its printed profile.

It does not have a 0 or a '-'. It doesn't even have the characteristic to attempt the test. It's an illegal target because it does not have the stat to being with. It would be like casting Haemorrhage on it (which, fyi, both say "target").

Look under the first bullet point of Characteristic Tests; There is no relevant characteristic in the model's profile. The unit has no printed stat in this regard, so it is an invalid target.

Do you have a rules quote to support that?

The characteristic test rules don't state anything about a target not having the stat being tested making it an illegal target.

There is a distinct difference between Haemorrhage and Dominate. Haemorrhage causes a wound on a fail, vehicles don't have wounds so that power does nothing. Dominate prevents all actions of the unit.

Also, it is possible for a vehicle to pass a leadership test (which is considered separate to a characteristic test anyway, read the Characteristic test paragraph). If it rolls a double 1 then the test is passed automatically, regardless of modifiers and the Leadership Value being tested against.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RatLord wrote:I think this may be reaching for an answer to flyers that just isn't there. Especially when you consider that "vehicle never take MORALE check for any reason" is listed under the heading "Vehicles, leadership and morale".

I'm not saying you're right or wrong here but since there is no rule one way or another here you're going to have a very difficult time getting anyone to agree with it.

A leadership test is not a morale check. A morale check is a type of leadership test.

It is a gaping hole in the rules that should have been covered but isn't and should be FAQ'd.

However, just because a vehicle doesn't have a Ld value doesn't mean it automatically fails.


1) The rules call for the vehicle to pass a Ld test.
2) The player then looks to find a Ld value for the vehicle and cannot.
3) The game breaks.

The game breaks because a Ld test is required and a Ld value is needed to take a Ld test and this is not provided in the rules.


But if you think for a second that GW would ever FAQ that vehicles auto-fail any Ld tests they are called upon to take then you're most certainly nuts. We all know the answer to this question when answered by GW will be that vehicles automatically pass all Ld tests they are called upon to take, or rather that any model without a Ld characteristic does not have to take Ld tests.

A Town Called Malus wrote:The characteristic test rules don't state anything about a target not having the stat being tested making it an illegal target.

Step 1 - Roll a d6 and compare the result to the relevant characteristic in the model's profile.

Please find me the relevant characteristic.

A Town Called Malus wrote:There is a distinct difference between Haemorrhage and Dominate. Haemorrhage causes a wound on a fail, vehicles don't have wounds so that power does nothing. Dominate prevents all actions of the unit.

Ok. How about Enfeeble? This power requires no such failure test on the part of the target. Can you make a vehicle suffer minus's to strength or toughness?

A Town Called Malus wrote:Also, it is possible for a vehicle to pass a leadership test (which is considered separate to a characteristic test anyway, read the Characteristic test paragraph). If it rolls a double 1 then the test is passed automatically, regardless of modifiers and the Leadership Value being tested against.

Then if a Leadership test is considered separate to a characteristic test, then the entry for automatic pass and fail which in its first 3 words say "characteristic test" do not apply, and this question is moot.

djdarknoise wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:Also, it is possible for a vehicle to pass a leadership test (which is considered separate to a characteristic test anyway, read the Characteristic test paragraph). If it rolls a double 1 then the test is passed automatically, regardless of modifiers and the Leadership Value being tested against.

Then if a Leadership test is considered separate to a characteristic test, then the entry for automatic pass and fail which in its first 3 words say "characteristic test" do not apply, and this question is moot.

It isn't an automatic fail, yes. The vehicle passes on a roll of double 1, so it's pretty damn close though

A Town Called Malus wrote:

djdarknoise wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:Also, it is possible for a vehicle to pass a leadership test (which is considered separate to a characteristic test anyway, read the Characteristic test paragraph). If it rolls a double 1 then the test is passed automatically, regardless of modifiers and the Leadership Value being tested against.

Then if a Leadership test is considered separate to a characteristic test, then the entry for automatic pass and fail which in its first 3 words say "characteristic test" do not apply, and this question is moot.

It isn't an automatic fail, yes. The vehicle passes on a roll of double 1, so it's pretty damn close though

Please see my above questions.

"Can you show me the relevant stat with which to test on the unit's profile"
"Can you use Enfeeble, which requires no failure on the part of the target, to lower a Vehicle's Strength and Toughness"

Congrats you found a RAW loophole that breaks the game and the game effectively halts as Yak pointed out. Have a laugh and move on from the thread. GW may do some dumb auto win buttons like Mindstrike Missiles, but it's not *typically* what they mean to do.

djdarknoise wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:

djdarknoise wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:Also, it is possible for a vehicle to pass a leadership test (which is considered separate to a characteristic test anyway, read the Characteristic test paragraph). If it rolls a double 1 then the test is passed automatically, regardless of modifiers and the Leadership Value being tested against.

Then if a Leadership test is considered separate to a characteristic test, then the entry for automatic pass and fail which in its first 3 words say "characteristic test" do not apply, and this question is moot.

It isn't an automatic fail, yes. The vehicle passes on a roll of double 1, so it's pretty damn close though

Please see my above questions.

"Can you show me the relevant stat with which to test on the unit's profile"
"Can you use Enfeeble, which requires no failure on the part of the target, to lower a Vehicle's Strength and Toughness"

1) No but it is still possible for the vehicle to pass, on a roll of a double 1 as per the Leadership test rules.
2) No because Enfeeble would have absolutely no effect on the vehicle. It has no Strength and Toughness and Maledictions cannot reduce these stats to zero (which kills the affected unit) unless specifically stated, which Enfeeble does not. So in this case nothing minus 1 is still nothing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BlueDagger wrote:Congrats you found a RAW loophole that breaks the game and the game effectively halts as Yak pointed out. Have a laugh and move on from the thread. GW may do some dumb auto win buttons like Mindstrike Missiles, but it's not *typically* what they mean to do.

The funny thing is that if GW actually put in rules regarding Leadership tests under their "Vehicles, Leadership And Morale" section there wouldn't be this problem.

A Town Called Malus wrote:

1) No but it is still possible for the vehicle to pass, on a roll of a double 1 as per the Leadership test rules.
2) No because Enfeeble would have absolutely no effect on the vehicle. It has no Strength and Toughness and Maledictions cannot reduce these stats to zero (which kills the affected unit) unless specifically stated, which Enfeeble does not. So in this case nothing minus 1 is still nothing.

1) Excepting for the fact that the first bullet point says that to make a leadership test, I roll 2d6 and compare the result to the Model's Leadership. If my result is equal to or less than my Leadership, I pass. As RAW states, I auto fail if my characteristic is printed 0 (or reduced to such via other means) or I have a '-'. As a vehicle has neither a printed value of 0 (and as such, cannot be reduced), nor do I have a printed value of '-', then my Leadership is Infinite, because in order to successfully pass (or fail) there must be a target.

Weaken Resolve: "Choose one enemy unit within 36″ and line of sight of the Psyker Battle Squad. For the remainder of the turn, the enemy unit’s Leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit utilising the power (to a minimum of 2).” Codex: Imperial Guard p. 47."

Can you do this to a Vehicle? How do you know what the starting value of the Leadership is to reduce it by? You don't, because you can't.

2) Exactly. You cannot reduce the printed stats to 0 or the model dies. So how do you reduce printed stats if there are none?

You have no leadership characteristic to compare against thus the test is invalid.

I like this YMDC thread. Why? Because its taught me a valuable lesson. Flyers can be killed by psykers, and in the case of Necrons, by abyssal staves! Wooo! Take that, you leadership lugging flyers! Also, cause, you know, flyers arnt vehicles either *eyeshift*

But uh, if you can target flyers with leadership type attacks, why stop there? Lets see what they do to fortifications...

Basimpo wrote:I like this YMDC thread. Why? Because its taught me a valuable lesson. Flyers can be killed by psykers, and in the case of Necrons, by abyssal staves! Wooo! Take that, you leadership lugging flyers! Also, cause, you know, flyers arnt vehicles either *eyeshift*

But uh, if you can target flyers with leadership type attacks, why stop there? Lets see what they do to fortifications...

Except you cannot hit flyers with Templates

Basically we have two options.

1) Play with the RAW:

yakface wrote:1) The rules call for the vehicle to pass a Ld test.
2) The player then looks to find a Ld value for the vehicle and cannot.
3) The game breaks.

The game breaks because a Ld test is required and a Ld value is needed to take a Ld test and this is not provided in the rules.

The Game breaks, and we have to start over.

yakface wrote:But if you think for a second that GW would ever FAQ that vehicles auto-fail any Ld tests they are called upon to take then you're most certainly nuts. We all know the answer to this question when answered by GW will be that vehicles automatically pass all Ld tests they are called upon to take, or rather that any model without a Ld characteristic does not have to take Ld tests.

2) Come to an agreeable solution on how it was meant to be played.

The underlined seems like an agreeable solution on how it was meant to be played.

Vehicles have no Ld stat to test against. So the game breaks.


We have two choices to resolve this quandry.

1: Vehicles always autopass Ld tests because they have no Ld to test against. The exception is in the case of Psychic Vehicles, in which case they have a specific Ld value for the purposes of Psychic tests, but nothing else.

2: Vehicles auto-fail Ld tests because they have no Ld.


One option breaks the game and just becomes insanely stupidly powerful. The other lets the game continue to run smoothly and won't ruffle feathers and hurt feelings.

I'll leave it up to you to decide which is which, and which to go with.

djdarknoise wrote:

Basimpo wrote:I like this YMDC thread. Why? Because its taught me a valuable lesson. Flyers can be killed by psykers, and in the case of Necrons, by abyssal staves! Wooo! Take that, you leadership lugging flyers! Also, cause, you know, flyers arnt vehicles either *eyeshift*

But uh, if you can target flyers with leadership type attacks, why stop there? Lets see what they do to fortifications...

Except you cannot hit flyers with Templates

Also, the abyssal staff cant hit vehicles It was sarcasm lol