Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I remember someone going over with me the new terrain rules in a thread, and saying that the top of bastions grant a 3+ cover save. I was just looking for that last night and was unable to find it in the book so I had take to take a 4+. Wasn't a huge deal but I would like to know which one is correct, and where exactly to find where it is outlined. I looked in the book for a good 15-20 minutes in the building/bastion/fortification sections and it never outlined it well. Thank you!

p.18 top right of the page under Cover Chart. I think you were also looking for Fortifications.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
but if youre on TOP of the bastion, you only get a 5+ cover save. they can see between 25-100% of your model up there generally. keep them inside and they can fire out of the fire points (watch out for grenades though!)

Check pg18 under The Cover Chart and you will see fortification for 3+ save however it all depends on what is modelled on the battlement that confers the cover save, for example the imperial bastion in the rulebook certainly has fortified walls around so would confer the 3+ cover save but if you make your own bastion it may have a ruined fortified wall on top instead which would only confer a 4+ cover save, what should happen is at the start of the game just check with your opponent and make sure you agree the saves for the terrain and battlements, it also saves checking the rulebook later on as its already been agreed.

I posted my opinion in another thread and got beat up for it a bit, but FWIW, here's my take.

The top of the bastion is a roof, and the roof of a building is defined as a battlement (page 95, paragraph 1).

Models on a battlement get a save from their armor and the walls of the battlement (same page, paragraph 2).

Walls in general give a 4+ save (page 104, under barricades and walls).

The bastion is in the fortification section, but it's terrain type is defined as a medium building, not necessarily a fortification (page 116).

So I would say the walled battlement of the imperial bastion gives a 4+ cover save, but pre-game I would discuss this with my opponent and if we decided the walls were fortified walls, then they would grant a 3+ cover save as per the fortification cover type.

Nowhere in the rules will you find the rule that "The roof of an imperial Bastion grants a 3+ (or any value) cover save.", you need to discuss it pre-game.

No where does it say that it grants a 4+ cover save. The bastion is a fortification, and any unit (model) being granted a cover save from it gets a 3+.

Its not battlefield debris under the barricades and walls section. The book would clearly say so if that was the case, as it does under the aegis defense line

time wizard wrote:
The bastion is in the fortification section, but it's terrain type is defined as a medium building, not necessarily a fortification (page 116).

Bastion is example of a Fortification in page 97.

Going from all the rules texts regarding fortifications, I'd actually say that anything that any Fortifications section that isn't specifically determined to be of spesific terrain type should be considered Fortifications as far as cover goes.

Luide wrote:

time wizard wrote:
The bastion is in the fortification section, but it's terrain type is defined as a medium building, not necessarily a fortification (page 116).

Bastion is example of a Fortification in page 97.

Going from all the rules texts regarding fortifications, I'd actually say that anything that any Fortifications section that isn't specifically determined to be of spesific terrain type should be considered Fortifications as far as cover goes.

You're correct. A bastion is an example of a fortification. Doesn't necessarily make it one unless it is defined as such.

Now, go to page 116. Impertial Bastion. What is its Terrain Type? Fortification? No, its terrain type is defined as a Medium building.

What cover save does a medium building confer? None, it has an AV of 14.

What cover save does a battlement give? Page 95 says units on battlements get a save from their armour and the battlement's walls.

The only reference to cover saves from walls that I can find is on page 104, and that says units behind walls have a 4+ cover save.

If you can find a rule or sentence in the rules that says an Imperial Bastion's Battlement's walls confer a 3+ cover save, please tell me what page it is on, because I havent found it.

Barring that, there is nothing more for me to say about this. I even admitted that I would discuss this with my opponent pre-game and would have no problem agreeing to a 3+ cover save for unit on a bastion's battlements.

But this is YMDC, and the best you can find in the rules is that a wall gives a 4+ save, and units on battlements can get cover saves from the battlement's walls.

I am not arguing what save you can get, I'm just explaining what save the rules indicate you would get, by default.

Looks like I was not explicit enough:
Pages 92-97 define Battlefield Terrain rules for Buildings.
On page 97, Bastion is example of Fortifications [Building Type].
So Bastion is both Fortifications [Building Type] as per page 97 and Fortification [FOC Choice] as per page 116.

Looks like I wrote Fortification in my earlier post when I meant Fortifications

I agree with Luide. In the end if a fortified bastion isn't a fortificationS what else can be defined as such?

Indeed

Bastions have to be fortifications. Otherwise we just might as well toss all terrain classifications out the window.

Luide wrote:Looks like I was not explicit enough:
Pages 92-97 define Battlefield Terrain rules for Buildings.
On page 97, Bastion is example of Fortifications [Building Type].
So Bastion is both Fortifications [Building Type] as per page 97 and Fortification [FOC Choice] as per page 116.

Looks like I wrote Fortification in my earlier post when I meant Fortifications

You were certainly explicit enough! No worries there.
And yes, page 97 does show an imperial bastion and a fortess of redemption.
It even says the fortress is a vast fortification.
Now just consider the following. There are 4 different fortifications listed on pages 114 to 117.
They are listed as fortifications because you can take them in your army for the points listed.
The aegis defence line and the skyshield landing pad are both fortifications also. So do you get a 3+ cover save from them?
No becasue one says it's terrain type is battlefield debris (defence lines) and that rule says that walls of defence lines grant a 4+ save, and the other, even though it's terrain type is unique, says you only get a 4+ cover save when shielded. So there's a special rule to give the cover save for the terrain type.
The last two, the bastion and fortress are both buildings. Neither has a special rule saying that their battlements grant a 3+ cover save. So you have to go with the default.
And the default is the wall of a battlement. Read the battlement rules on page 95 again. Battlements are not fortifications, they aren't even buildings. They are roofs. There might be walls, hedges, razorwire or cardboard along the edges of the roof. If there is, then your unit would get the appropriate cover save. If the battlement had fortified walls, or fortified hedges, or fortified cardboard, then you would get a 3+ cover save, because of the condition of the walls, not the condition of the building. Got it?

It's really not worth arguing about further. A future FAQ may or may not prove me wrong, but so far at least, the rules as written (and that I have cited numerous times) support my position.

But those are explicit deviations from them being fortifications. The Bastion is given no such exception, therefore it MUST be a Fortification.

Grey Templar wrote:But those are explicit deviations from them being fortifications. The Bastion is given no such exception, therefore it MUST be a Fortification.

Just because it's in a section called 'fortifications'?

Then I guess a trench must be debris, because it's in a section called 'battlefield debris'.

time wizard wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:But those are explicit deviations from them being fortifications. The Bastion is given no such exception, therefore it MUST be a Fortification.

Just because it's in a section called 'fortifications'?

Then I guess a trench must be debris, because it's in a section called 'battlefield debris'.

Yes, actually.

What else would it be aside from the Specific entity of a Trench Line?

Also if you go back to page 96(Fortifications and Dilapidation) It tells you that the Buildings you can add on Page 108, can be used as Nuetral buil;ding and while they would still be fortifications they have a few extra special rules.

Being a Building and Being a fortification are not mutually exclusive states. A Bastion is a Fortification by any definition, it is also a Medium Building(which determines transport capacity and maximum base dimensions).

In fact I challenge you to find the rules and defining statements within the BRB for what a Fortification is(Definition or specifically classified buildings).

Kommissar Kel wrote:
In fact I challenge you to find the rules and defining statements within the BRB for what a Fortification is(Definition or specifically classified buildings).

Page 114, "All fortifications have a datasheet that contains all the information you'll need to use them in your game."

Page 109, last section in the right hand column, "Fortifications".

Page 97, "Fortififications, Fire Poinnts and Armour Values".

Now, I challenge you to find the rule that says the battlement of an imperial bastion or a fortress of redemption grants a 3+ save.

Suppose you have a bastion model and there are no walls on the roof at all. The models are standing out in the open. You still going to give them a 3+ save because they are standing in the open on a roof?

To re-iterate, my argument was that Bastion is FortificationS not because of its 'unit' entry but because it was spesifically mentioned to be one in page 97.

I personally don't think that you get 3+ save just by being on the battlement. But as Bastion is a FortificationS, it grants 3+ cover save to eligible models as per page 18.

if you are 25% behind the bastion, you get a 3+ cover save. If you are behind battlement walls with only ur head popping out of it you get 4+ save for it being walls instead of fortifications?

by that logic its better to be outside of the fortification than being inside of it

i argue that the entire building is a fortification and that the battlement walls are a lot stronger than the walls of ruins

time wizard wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:
In fact I challenge you to find the rules and defining statements within the BRB for what a Fortification is(Definition or specifically classified buildings).

Page 114, "All fortifications have a datasheet that contains all the information you'll need to use them in your game."

Page 109, last section in the right hand column, "Fortifications".

Page 97, "Fortififications, Fire Poinnts and Armour Values".

Now, I challenge you to find the rule that says the battlement of an imperial bastion or a fortress of redemption grants a 3+ save.

Suppose you have a bastion model and there are no walls on the roof at all. The models are standing out in the open. You still going to give them a 3+ save because they are standing in the open on a roof?

Page 18, "Fortifications 3+"

The Battlement is a portion of a Multipart building that is a fortification(by the definitions you provided); thus the battlements are fortifications.

Also you cannot shoot a unit inside of a building(excepting with Cover-ignoring Template weapons, and that is an Incidental shooting at), so if the only fortifications that exist without a Special rule altering their Cover saves are the Battlements of Bastions and/or a Fortress of redemption.

SO yes, I will grant them a 3+ Cover for being Behind Fortified Walls(that is the entire purpose of Crenelated Battlements after all).

But here is something else that you are not taking into account(and is more in line with your manner of thinking); If you have a random Small/Medium building that is not a Bastion or other Fortification(Lets say an adobe house) that has a little Battlement area on the top; then Yes, that flimsy structure will only grant a 5+ or a 4+(depending on materiel, Declaration, and Opponent agreement).
You see we are only talking about Bastion(Fortifications) Battlements here, not all battlements.

No new thing under the sun...

Lobukia wrote:@Time Wizard

Let's look at your examples

We are told fortifications give us 3+

Forifications that don't, tell us different (Aegis and Pad). Fortifications that do, don't need to tell us. Following their own rule of Specific > general, when a specific fortification did not warrent a 3+, they told us. However, when they wanted the general rule to apply, they didn't tell us anything (why would they need to, its already covered in General > no information).

(This is all using the blind assumption that anything the book tells us is a fortifications is what they were thinking of when they said fortification = +3, which apparently you think is an incredible feat of word twisting and rule lawyering). ...and before you fly off the handle, I am also making the crazy assumption that part of the building, counts as part of the building, ergo, follows the rules for the building.

Now, I do see your point that buildings =/= fortification, and I agree. But I don't see how you can say fortification =/= fortification, that's just plain ballsy on this forum. As far as the Bastion in particular goes, is AV 14 (like a bunker), its elevated, it has excellent cover, and if anything meets the requirements for being a "fortification" (assuming somehow that fortification =/= fortification), it would. Especially since we are told a ruined bastion would give cover 4+... so a prestine one would be better... like, say 3+?

You're taking the same position and so am I. I don't remember from the other thread... if a fortification isn't a fortification, what is?

Lobukia wrote:You're taking the same position and so am I. I don't remember from the other thread... if a fortification isn't a fortification, what is?

A Fortification is a fortification. No problem there.

A battlement is not a fortification, it is a roof. That is how it is defined in the rules.

It might be a fortified position, but then again, it might not be.

Nowhere does it say the roof of a fortification is also a fortification in and of itself.

The roof and battlements of a fortification are still a part of the terrain piece, and still a part of the fortification. If they weren't the battlements could not be with 3 inches of the building...

if you want to classify the battlements atop the terrain piece as anything other than the default for the terrain, in this case a fortification, you would need to discuss it pregame.

So IF your roof has razorwire and not actual walls, you are free to classify that as a 6+.

In the same train of thought, does anyone have information about being able to use a flamer against people on top of a Bastion? I would think not, as if the flamer is coming from the gun the template would never reach the units up top. I am currently going through the rulebook and discussing this with a friend, thanks!

Farseer Mael Dannan wrote: the flamer is coming from the gun the template would never reach the units up top.

This is correct for Vehicles.

For Non vehicles you use the base and not the gun for the Template.

But either way the Template would not reach the models on the bastion.

DeathReaper wrote:
But either way the Template would not reach the models on the bastion.

Thank you!

time wizard wrote:
The aegis defence line and the skyshield landing pad are both fortifications also. So do you get a 3+ cover save from them?
No becasue one says it's terrain type is battlefield debris (defence lines) and that rule says that walls of defence lines grant a 4+ save, and the other, even though it's terrain type is unique, says you only get a 4+ cover save when shielded. So there's a special rule to give the cover save for the terrain type.

Aegis defense lines explicitly state that they're battlefield debris. You are, however, incorrect about the Skyshield. The skyshield is still a fortification, and still grants a 3+ cover save when obscuring units. The 4+ save that it confers when it's shielded is an Invulnerable save, not a cover save.

Yeah, the Skyshield gives something additionall to the normal cover save.

Obviously the models need to be 25% obscured(same for bastions and the FoR) to get the save, but they get a 3+ save if they are.


Battlements on a wooden building obviously only give a 5+ cover save. Bastions give a 3+.

I don't really see the issue here. I would never claim a 3+ cover save from a flimsy wooden structure(unless I had shrouding/stealth)