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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/23 16:56:34
Subject: 6th edition nids... what are we to do?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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im buying the rule book tonight, but from everything ive seen... have nids taken a HUGE hit to their army... i mean with flyers being so hard to destroy and all, with the crack shots and the shooting kills the people in the front lines (which ive always wondered how it didnt) it seems like my assaulters are done, genes are screwed and i cant shoot down planes nearly as well (which already sucked) as before.... any ideas?
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Anything will die if you can stab it enough. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/23 17:26:52
Subject: 6th edition nids... what are we to do?
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Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar
USA
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My first idea, don't make decisions like "nids are going to suck in this edition" until you read the rule book. Because they got huge buffs as well. First off flying monstrous creatures. Just as hard to hit as a flyer but we get to vector strike and shoot, and then shoot+assault next turn. Gene stealers didn't get nerfed more like their tactics changed. They got buffed with the brood lord+biomancy, and then the changes to poison boost them too. And honestly I don't have troubles with flyers, they have low av anyways. Hive guard and then TL devourers from your big bugs can take care of them pretty easily. And if your flyrant gets iron arm vector strike the flyer with your +d3 strength. Plus vehicles are easier to destroy with hull points. All in all the nids got a boost I'm sure you'll agree when you read the book.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/23 17:32:11
Subject: Re:6th edition nids... what are we to do?
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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Yeah, you couldn't be more wrong about nids and the change.
Nids have access to Flying Monstrous Creatures who can deal with enemy flyers while also being flyers, of a sort, themselves.
Biomancy is an amazing discipline that nids have access to. And they can have the most psykers of any army too. Telepathy is pretty good too.
There is now no downside to Rage, so units with Feed are much better. You actually want them to fail the test.
You can't assault after running anymore, but Fleet does let you reroll the run and charge dice. A rerollable 2D6 for charge is awsome, especially since you can reroll just one of the two dice if you want. So the enemy is 9" away. You rol a 6 and a 1. Reroll that 1!
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/23 17:34:39
Subject: 6th edition nids... what are we to do?
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Tunneling Trygon
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Looking at Nids, swap out your Trygons and Dakka Fex for psychic creatures, namely Tervis and Tyrants. The psychic powers (biomancy) are just amazing for us in numbers. Flyer spams an issue, but if it's just one, you can pretty much kill everything else and still win. Flyers can never score or contest at least.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/23 17:36:55
Subject: Re:6th edition nids... what are we to do?
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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Not quite correct. Stormravens and Vendettas can hover and in one of the missions they are scoring because of being FA/HS(depending on the codex) but once they hover you can assault them normally.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/23 18:12:02
Subject: Re:6th edition nids... what are we to do?
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Tunneling Trygon
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Grey Templar wrote:Not quite correct. Stormravens and Vendettas can hover and in one of the missions they are scoring because of being FA/HS(depending on the codex) but once they hover you can assault them normally.
Haha, well played. But a hovering flyer shouldnt be too much of a problem...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/23 18:19:19
Subject: 6th edition nids... what are we to do?
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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The biggest change to Nids is that No-Retreat wounds are gone. It is the single biggest boost to our army. If I hit a unit of TH/SS terminiators with 20 guants I now know that I bought myself 2-3 turns of not having to deal with that unit. If I decided to charge my Swarmlord into the fight I know the isn't going to get ganked becasue 8 guants died.
All the other stuff is icing on the cake. But having hordes become viable again is a much bigger boost then not having Allies or charging from Outflanking is a Nerf.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/23 18:39:27
Subject: 6th edition nids... what are we to do?
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Cosmic Joe
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Don't forget that Tyrants get precision shots too, i can't tell you how many comissars, sanguinary priests, plasma gunners and various other cool stuff i've wasted that way
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Nosebiter wrote:Codex Space Marine is renamed as Codex Counts As Because I Dont Like To Loose And Gw Hates My Army. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/23 19:11:16
Subject: Re:6th edition nids... what are we to do?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Grey Templar wrote:
Nids have access to Flying Monstrous Creatures who can deal with enemy flyers while also being flyers, of a sort, themselves.
How do Flying MCs deal with enemy flyers? They don't get the option to Skyfire.
PS. I think Tyranids are the most improved army in 6th so try not to think of this as bashing.
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"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/23 19:37:29
Subject: Re:6th edition nids... what are we to do?
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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DarknessEternal wrote:How do Flying MCs deal with enemy flyers? They don't get the option to Skyfire.
Vector Strike. And it really only works well with the Flyrant. Still has problems with AV12 though as you need 6's to glance. Harpys can do it, but S5 means your limited to AV10-AV11 side armor.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/23 20:19:59
Subject: Re:6th edition nids... what are we to do?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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yes ill have a look into it, i guess to clarify as it stands my current army, that i have built and love and treats me very well... looks screwed maybe im wrong, so ill have to look into im glad tyrants get precision shot... with all their... amazing anti tank.... guns... i dunno ill have to read it further about.... 6 hours till im off work.. so. i dunno. it just seems like genes got hacked.... mcs got hacked cause we cant hit flyers.. . nids already have issues with range and str of range weapons.... so... like taking down a flaying 12av with shooting is impossible... i dunno perhaps im wrong im just reading rules as i see them posted on here and other sites like this, and we all know info isnt the best as 2nd or 3rd hand info so ill read into it it just seems like they got a lot weaker from what ive heard from other nid players.
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Anything will die if you can stab it enough. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/23 20:34:53
Subject: Re:6th edition nids... what are we to do?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Gloomfang wrote:
Vector Strike. And it really only works well with the Flyrant. Still has problems with AV12 though as you need 6's to glance. Harpys can do it, but S5 means your limited to AV10-AV11 side armor.
That's pretty freaking terrible at actually killing Flying vehicles.
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"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/23 20:37:38
Subject: Re:6th edition nids... what are we to do?
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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Shadowmyth515 wrote:yes ill have a look into it, i guess to clarify as it stands my current army, that i have built and love and treats me very well... looks screwed maybe im wrong, so ill have to look into im glad tyrants get precision shot... with all their... amazing anti tank.... guns... i dunno ill have to read it further about.... 6 hours till im off work.. so. i dunno. it just seems like genes got hacked.... mcs got hacked cause we cant hit flyers.. . nids already have issues with range and str of range weapons.... so... like taking down a flaying 12av with shooting is impossible... i dunno perhaps im wrong im just reading rules as i see them posted on here and other sites like this, and we all know info isnt the best as 2nd or 3rd hand info so ill read into it it just seems like they got a lot weaker from what ive heard from other nid players.
OK lets take a look at your fears.
1) Tyrants with there anti-tanks guns: TL Dev and HVC are now actully good at killing vehicles. Not LR, but 6 S6 attacks will shread light armour now and blast templates only have to clip a model to get full strenght. Also PE now lets you reroll shooting attacks.
2) Genes got hacked: Sort of. They can not charge from Outflank. Thats it. Blords are the masters of killing things in challanges though and they are more survivable as the guy with the PF is now locked into combat with your Blord or not fighting at all. Also they get good protection from psychic attacks and the Blord has a chance to buff them a bit. They play a lot more diffrently. They are not the screaming at your enemy unit that they used to be. But once there they are even more deadly. Not a lot of stuff ignores armor anymore.
3) MCs geting hacked and flyers: Flyers are everybodys problem, mainly the AV12 ones. We have access to the Gun Emplacements. Quad-gun with PE and a BS4 biovore looks to be a good option. Also we have access to a lot of psykers and we can try to spam OM from the TK disipline.
They play diffrent now. Very diffrent. But on the whole they are much better.
DarknessEternal : Flyers suck at killing AV12 in my opinion. If I see them I spam TK on all 6 psykers and hope for 3-4 OM results. I have wiped out an entire Valk Squadron the turn it came on the board that way.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/23 20:42:05
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/24 03:16:51
Subject: 6th edition nids... what are we to do?
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Hungry Little Ripper
USAFA
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Dunno what you're using the biovore for, Gloomfang, seeing as how he can't fire the emplaced guns himself. Honestly, I really don't see the point in paying that many points for one BS2 gun that can be separately targeted and destroyed.
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We're not evil, we're just hungry. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/24 09:53:09
Subject: 6th edition nids... what are we to do?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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You are correct in that the biovore couldn't fire emplaced weapons.
However gun emplacements like the quad-gun are a different thing entirely. The 'nids have no restrictions on firing them, so it would use the biovores BS3.
Still, whether it's actually worth the points is a good question.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/24 10:18:37
Subject: Re:6th edition nids... what are we to do?
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Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan
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Arson Fire wrote:You are correct in that the biovore couldn't fire emplaced weapons.
However gun emplacements like the quad-gun are a different thing entirely. The 'nids have no restrictions on firing them, so it would use the biovores BS3.
Still, whether it's actually worth the points is a good question.
I really don't know what you're talking about here. The rulebook doesn't define any difference between 'gun emplacements' and 'emplaced weapons'. They're the same thing, and nids can't fire them manually per the FAQ.
However there's nothing to stop you taking an Aegis line with a quad-gun, having it auto-fire using the Interceptor rule. The Aegis line will hide Biovores inside for a decent cover save too.
DarknessEternal wrote:Gloomfang wrote:
Vector Strike. And it really only works well with the Flyrant. Still has problems with AV12 though as you need 6's to glance. Harpys can do it, but S5 means your limited to AV10-AV11 side armor.
That's pretty freaking terrible at actually killing Flying vehicles.
It's pretty good at killing AV10/11 flyers when combined with S6 TL devourers on the rear armour. AV12 side-armour flyers aren't that common (I can't think of any aside from the Marine ones, which can hover). For those things like Dominate or Objuration Mechanicum work better. Yeah nids do have a weakness to flyers (as do alot of codexes outside of tarking Fortifications), but you still have options to deal with them.
Worst case there's nothing stopping you from taking Fortifcation guns, you just have to setlle for the TL BS2.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/07/24 12:13:45
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/24 10:38:06
Subject: 6th edition nids... what are we to do?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Emplaced Weapons are on page 96. They are built into a building, and can be fired by the occupants. They have Manual Fire and Automated Fire modes, of which 'nids can only use Automated Fire.
Gun Emplacements are on page 105. They aren't part of a structure, but count as a T7 model with 2 wounds. A model in base contact with one can fire it instead of their own gun.
Completely different rules.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/24 10:38:21
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/24 12:14:31
Subject: 6th edition nids... what are we to do?
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Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan
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Well spotted good sir! Say hello to my army list mister quad-autocannon...
Edit:
A new Tyranid strategy springs to mind...
Normlly when assaulting defense lines, you count as in base to base contact if both models are touching the line itself. This means you don't need to 'jump over' to assault it, don't need to take a difficult terrain test, and therefore don't go at I1 when assaulting.
Now if you take an Aegis line with quad-gun, throw a BS4 Venomthrope on it to gun (which wouldn't normally get to fire anyway), and fill the line with long ranged support like Biovores and/or a Tyrannofex. Everything inside gets a solid cover save. Anyone who tries to assault counts as in difficult and dangerous terrain, plus defensive grenades due to the Venomthrope. A Tyrannofex would get D3 free overwatch hits from his Thorax Swarm too.
And best of all, you can reliably shoot down flyers with four S7 shots at re-rollable 3+'s.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/24 12:47:52
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/24 14:12:19
Subject: 6th edition nids... what are we to do?
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Huge Hierodule
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Alright I'll chime in a bit here,
I'm with the majority of posters saying 'nids are actually BETTER in 6th than in 5th, with even their crappy codex. I LOVE my tyranids, and have had great fun with them in 6th. My current 6e record is 4-0 with tyranids.
So what changed about the game edition as a whole that is beneficial for 'nids?
1.) Game types are objective based 5 out of 6 times. Tyranid troops are actually useful, and we have a monstrous creature that births more during the game.
2.) Objectives must be grabbed or contested by FOOT units. No vehicles. A huge problem in 5th was squads hiding in rhinos all game, forcing us to charge the rhino to kill it, then they'd get out and rapid fire us to death. Or they'd be fine in their cage, and score the objective they were camping on. Those days are over - get out of the box!
3.) Vehicles and Hull Points -- s4 models with lots of attacks (big swarms of termagants, hormagaunts, rippers, gargoyles - all with furious charge, of course) can now glance a tank 3 times and wreck the thing. guaranteed. In 5th assaulting a tank with hormagaunts was usually a pointless maneuver, other than to gain some movement distance.
4.) Flying Monstrous Creatures. A flyrant is FINALLY worth 230 points...give him twin linked devourers and he'll shred any AV11 or lower armor facings, and he has the speed to maneuver wherever the best shots are.
5.) BIOMANCY -- I love having T9 monstrous creatures, or dropping wraiths to T3 so my s6 devourers instant death them, or giving a unit 24" away feel no pain and IT will not Die...the list goes on but our psykers are boss for keeping our big guys in the fight longer.
6.) Feel No Pain -- Yes it dropped to a 5+ but nothing ignores it for 'nids now except weapons that cause instant death. Note that even force weapons must be activated before they cause instant death, so we can take Feel No Pain on those wounds too. A tyranid with feel no pain is almost like having a 5+ invulnerable save that stacks with armor or cover (when available).
I could go on but overall 'nids are as viable in a tournament setting as just about any other army. Grey knights are still super killy but usually low on objective-holding units (even with grand strategy). Dark Eldar are super fast, but even more fragile now than before.
Give it some time to settle but i think you'll hear people saying "man I got stomped by a KILLER tyranid army the other day" way more often in 6th than you ever did in 5th ed.
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Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/25 01:31:57
Subject: 6th edition nids... what are we to do?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Our unseen HQ the Parasite has gotten to be very interesting. Along with being something Necrons may come to hate, thanks to Sarge is acting strange..., it could become one of our best Character hunters with WS5 and I6. Rending + Implant attack on a 6 to wound will make even terminators cringe. Thanks to the change in fearless rules, when that dead char. spawns ripper bases, you can charge them in with worry. And as IC it can join gargoyl broods.
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