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The basic question is can a librarian with a psychic hood with-in 6" of say Mephiston attempt to stop his self puff up powers?

I think he can because of the following reasons.

The original text that leads me to believe this is this. Pg 68.

"Each time a unit (or model) is targeted by an enemy psychic power and is within 6" of a friendly model with a psychic hood, the wearer of of the hood can attempt to Deny the Witch in their stead, as if he were in that unit."

So the first sentence... Each time a unit (or model) is targeted by an enemy psychic power...

This sentence says who is casting the power. The enemy player... thus not me. It also has the stipulation that a unit or model has to be targeted. Powers that don't require targets are ignored. That is all this first sentence tell us.

The second sentence... "and is within 6" of a friendly model with a psychic hood."
Friendly models are my models, thus my psycher. Also the model must have a psychic hood.

The third sentence... the wearer may try to deny the witch in their stead as if they were part of the unit.

This just says that the friendly hooded psycher may try to stop the power. Naturally they never would be part of the enemy unit, nor would the enemy normally want to try and stop their own powre, but being part of the enemy or even on the same side isn't a requirement. There had to be a clarifier as to whos side is the target unit or model in order to say which side the hood had to belong too.

If you can see how this three sentence rule breaks down differently, I'd like to hear it.

BTW... the results of this don't really effect me in anyway as the only army I play that has any anti psycher stuff in it is Space Wolves and the Runic Weapons work just like they used to.

Your conclusion is incorrect.

"Deny the Witch
If the Psychic test was passed and the target was an enemy, it now gets a chance to Deny the Witch and nullify the power." P.67

Was the target an enemy?

If the answer is no, then Deny the Witch can not be attempted.

Hahahahah. Yeah, you try that. Try explaining this to your opponent:

"You see, Meph isn't targeting himself with a friendly buff, he's actually cursing himself with an enemy power! Therefore I can stop it; don't worry Meph! I'll save you from those evil powers your casting upon yourself!!!!"

See where I'm going with this? Ownership of the models and the powers are important here. A model cannot be targeted by an enemy psychic power unless the person who doesn't own the model/unit is casting said power. Otherwise, it would be friendly. The implicit ownership defines what "enemy" and "friendly" are, and you cannot change your POV midway through the sentence to make it work in your favor.

Ownership of the model doesn't determine friendly/enemy. In fact it is very easy for you to have an enemy in your army list. If you don't believe me just try taking Eldrad or any farseer with runes of warding in a list with your librarian. (hint: your librarian will now be casting on 3D6 as well because you are still an enemy according to allies rule.)

"Ownership of the models and the powers are important here."

"are important here."

"here."

As in, in this example, given by the OP. So yes, in this example here ownership of the model determines friendly/enemy. Elsewhere this may not be the case, as you pointed out, but here it does.

When Mephiston targets himself, the target of the power is not an enemy.

Deny the Witch can not be attempted unless the power targets an enemy model.

I am reversing my opinion because of something else I've read and not anything anyone above has stated. Truth be told, several of the above posts make no sense as I have no idea what your actually referring too.

Using a psychic hood is still using Deny the Witch (this is the part I forgot), as such you have to follow the rules for Deny the Witch as well. And under Deny the Witch (in bold print even ) it says "To Deny the Witch, the targets controlling player rolls a D6."

So in this regard, the only people who can roll the dice is the target unit (model) player.

Ahh well, looks like some models just got extremely buff as there is no way to stop/hinder their rampaging anymore.

Jayden63 wrote:
Ahh well, looks like some models just got extremely buff as there is no way to stop/hinder their rampaging anymore.

Besides allied Farseers with Runes of Warding, allied Space Wolves with Runic Weapons (especially Njal) and Tyranid Shadow in the Warp, of course.


But yes, in general this is a huge buff towards psychic powers that target friendly units.

To the point most non marine players were already playing under this problem in earlier editions. Its just now that force hoods aren't ubiquitous and powerful now marines will have to deal with these issues.

With that though every army via allies has strong psychic defense if they are worried (Tyranids, Space Wolves, Eldar).

yakface wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:
Ahh well, looks like some models just got extremely buff as there is no way to stop/hinder their rampaging anymore.

Besides allied Farseers with Runes of Warding, allied Space Wolves with Runic Weapons (especially Njal) and Tyranid Shadow in the Warp, of course.


But yes, in general this is a huge buff towards psychic powers that target friendly units.

I'm really glad with this, now those damn marines can suffer what chaos has been suffering for years just watching in despair enemy units getting huge buffs while at the same time dispelling my now useless warptime.

Edit: You can't ally yourself with tyranids they are on their own.

I do like that GW has confirmed that a Force Weapon activation is a power that targets the user and not the victim, by saying you cannot Deny the Witch force weapon activation. So enemies that are immune to psychic powers arn't immune to activated Force Weapons.

Question is:
Can you now use DtW and/or the hood to negate the activation of force weapons?

To activate a force weapon you do it after a wound is failed on an enemy but the force weapon is actually a buff for the friendly unit and not directed at the enemy. It´s like hammerhand, a squad buff and as such wouldnt be able to be countered.

...or?

Pyriel- wrote:Question is:
Can you now use DtW and/or the hood to negate the activation of force weapons?

To activate a force weapon you do it after a wound is failed on an enemy but the force weapon is actually a buff for the friendly unit and not directed at the enemy. It´s like hammerhand, a squad buff and as such wouldnt be able to be countered.

...or?

Grey Templar wrote:I do like that GW has confirmed that a Force Weapon activation is a power that targets the user and not the victim, by saying you cannot Deny the Witch force weapon activation. So enemies that are immune to psychic powers arn't immune to activated Force Weapons.

Hoods also use DtW

Only space wolves get multiple stabs at negating psyker witchery. they can DTW, use the runic weapon and have probably a Wolf tail to give them another go at it.

Pyriel- wrote:Question is:
Can you now use DtW and/or the hood to negate the activation of force weapons?

To activate a force weapon you do it after a wound is failed on an enemy but the force weapon is actually a buff for the friendly unit and not directed at the enemy. It´s like hammerhand, a squad buff and as such wouldnt be able to be countered.

...or?

The only thing that can negate it is if you are in 24" of a runic weapon or such. Even a Wolf's Tail or hood won't help as it is not targeting the unit.

Yeah, you can't DTW a FW activation. It specifically says so in the DTW entry(or is it the FW entry?)

Jayden63 wrote:The basic question is can a librarian with a psychic hood with-in 6" of say Mephiston attempt to stop his self puff up powers?

The third sentence... the wearer may try to deny the witch in their stead as if they were part of the unit.

This just says that the friendly hooded psycher may try to stop the power. Naturally they never would be part of the enemy unit, nor would the enemy normally want to try and stop their own powre, but being part of the enemy or even on the same side isn't a requirement. There had to be a clarifier as to whos side is the target unit or model in order to say which side the hood had to belong too.

If you can see how this three sentence rule breaks down differently, I'd like to hear it.

This is where the argument breaks down. Specifically, "the wearer may try to deny the witch in their stead as if they were part of the unit." Your character may never be part of an enemy unit, nor is there any rule permitting you to behave as if you were part of their unit, including this one. Interpreting such a concept from this instance is injecting a new rule, in effect stating that because the rules do not specifically prohibit you from being able to act as if you were part of that unit for the purpose of this DTW roll, then you are permitted to do so under RAW.

aka "Daddy didn't tell me I couldn't fly, so I can go jump off an airplane without a parachute and be totally fine."

This kind of assumption is what happens when you begin to break down the english of a rule structure to the point where you are examining small parts of information in literal fashion, rather than considering the entire rule.