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Hey guys.

This is going to be a very simple discussion starter...

Do you miss Imperial Guard Doctrines?

And I don't mean the Veteran doctrines that are allowed in the current codex, but the ones from 4th edition that allowed an army to be well and truly customized to what their creator wanted. The one's that didn't just change what sort of troops could be taken, but also added a flavour, a personality or a theme to a person's army? The set of things that meant that no two armies were same!

I would like to hear people's positions on this!

Look forward to seeing what others think of this!

I never played 4th ed, but the doctrines look nice. Have made some mock army lists just to see what it would be like, and I personally would like to see them return in some form or another in the next IG codex. Hopefully we will get one after Chaos, Nids, SoB, Tau, and a few others.

I never played 4th but I understand they were a more cumbsersome version of veteran doctrines.

Testify wrote:I never played 4th but I understand they were a more cumbsersome version of veteran doctrines.

Veteran doctrines are crap. Woohoo I can take camo cloaks, carapace armour, or a single use large blast template. So much customization.

When making an army, I see the most important thing as creating something new, crafting the army to what I want, looks, way they function etc rather than it being a "winning force" (anyone looking at my army lists will understand what I mean by this).

I think doctrines seem to be perfect for customizing a force and I think it would be interesting to have this back.
I think too many armies are just stock standard, with no creative flare to them

I miss the doctrines so much it makes me sad to look at the old codex.

Sorry to hear it man

Lucien-Alexis wrote:When making an army, I see the most important thing as creating something new, crafting the army to what I want, looks, way they function etc rather than it being a "winning force" (anyone looking at my army lists will understand what I mean by this).

I think doctrines seem to be perfect for customizing a force and I think it would be interesting to have this back.
I think too many armies are just stock standard, with no creative flare to them

This is pretty much why I liked doctrines (or at least liked the idea of them, never played 4th ed.), you could create an elite storm trooper army, a mechanized army, or a horde army, you could make units be specialized in shooting with the sharpshooters, you can make them specialized towards assault with the hardened fighters and warrior weapon doctrines, you can make them mobile light infantry with the light infantry and jungle fighters. If you don't like any of the doctrines, just don't spend points on any of them.

Thats exactly why I think the doctrines rocked! nice summary.

What about downsides though? is there anyone out there in the general discussion forum that doesn't like the doctrines?

Testify said they were cumbersome (granted both myself and him admit that we never played 4th), so I would be interested in how they were combersome.

My personal opinion pretty much reflects that of Lucien-Alexis. The Imperial Guard has so many different regiments, a bit of customization would truly fit to reflect this and allow people to craft their army around the concept they have in mind. It also foregoes the need for several distinct codices that would otherwise be necessary for such a thing, which is why I believe that the Space Marines too should be reduced to a single Codex, but with a "construction kit" of doctrines of their own, as to allow making the Chapters unique and reflect their own fluff.

Actually, s far as I recall, the 4E Marine 'dex had some sort of doctrines for custom Vanilla SM too.

It seems that games workshop is moving Imperial guard away from the diverse force that it is and more towards what flows nicely in a game (army standardization).

I remember the old Games Workshop website which was full of all sorts of amazing stuff, conversion walkthroughs, painting etc.
One of the pages that I saved from years ago was one about using Doctrines to create more unorthodox armies, such as Adeptus Mechanicus, Blood Pact (from the Gaunt's Ghosts novel series... oh how I worship those novels), and Genestealer cults!

Lets hope with the more narrative 6th edition rules, that a shift towards more diverse and customized armies takes place.

doctrines were badass; I played a single game with the 4th codex, but I won it!

Hardened fighters+close order drill= Infantry Squads with WS4 (that's not that overpriced DKoK crap) and with +1 init, +1 Ld when the whole squad is in base contact with itself? Yes please. The best thing to ruin someone's day.

but yeah- I suppose GW went this to streamline play, or make things easier for non-IG armies, less thigns to remeber maybe...

I have reoccurring nightmares where we live with a codex that doesn't have doctrines anymore... Oh wait.

Losing doctrines has been the most upsetting and disappointing thing that has ever happened to me in my time playing since 2001.

I pray every night before I go to sleep that they return in the next codex.

Marines get six codecies to differentiate and customize their play style and organization, but we as a less standardized and more varied fighting force get almost no selection at all. Something seems off here...

Ignatius wrote:I have reoccurring nightmares where we live with a codex that doesn't have doctrines anymore... Oh wait.

Losing doctrines has been the most upsetting and disappointing thing that has ever happened to me in my time playing since 2001.

I pray every night before I go to sleep that they return in the next codex.

Marines get six codecies to differentiate and customize their play style and organization, but we as a less standardized and more varied fighting force get almost no selection at all. Something seems off here...

Not to mention the fluff part of the IG Codex speak how the Guard is the largest, most diverse fighting force in the Galaxy, so diverse than in the following pages, you see that no, everything works the same for every regiment all across the Imperium, just that the uniform changes.

Buttons wrote:
This is pretty much why I liked doctrines (or at least liked the idea of them, never played 4th ed.), you could create an elite storm trooper army,

veterans with grenedier doctrine. BS4 and carapace armour.

Buttons wrote:a mechanized army

Yeah because no one plays mech guard any more...

Buttons wrote:or a horde army

Sup blobs.

Buttons wrote:you could make units be specialized in shooting with the sharpshooters

FRFSRF is far more potent.

Buttons wrote:you can make them specialized towards assault with the hardened fighters and warrior weapon doctrines

Furious Charge+Re-roll to hit on assault. Sounds pretty specialised to me.

Buttons wrote:you can make them mobile light infantry with the light infantry and jungle fighters

You can do that with veteran doctrines.

Half of what you said is not valid; those old doctrines affected the WHOLE army not just a few 10 men squads, nor are they leaning on a few characters, like officers or priests to give said special rules.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:Half of what you said is not valid; those old doctrines affected the WHOLE army not just a few 10 men squads, nor are they leaning on a few characters, like officers or priests to give said special rules.

I don't know if you knew this, but if you take lots of those 10 man squads, it becomes an army

Why is taking a charector so abhorrent to you? Officers are a must-have anyway, fluff wise it wouldn't make sense to not have officers. And priests are awesome.

RAHHHHGH A RAH RAHHH

Yeah, only veterans with a CCS...how original is that.

as for priest, having a single squad with re-roll on the charge is not as good as a whole army.
and priest don't count as an HQ in the FoC, so can't really run him as a stand-alone HQ.

Have to agree with Testify on one point... Priests... Are Awesome

I liked with the older codex that you can choose different support squads to support the company command squad. Even small things like that help to create an army's identity, eg, having a doctrine allowing more stormtrooper squads can indicate (fluff wise) that the force is elite and/or comes from near a Schola Progenium facility. Doctrines allowed for an army to tell a story without even writing anything for them.

Or have a HQ with a senior officer and 3-4 junior officers as well. can't have have that now; content yourselves with advisors and bodyguards.

I miss the concept, but in all honesty, the 5E book let me play at least one of my IG armies they way I'd always wanted them to play, which was lots of tanks, lots of dudes, not giving two ****s if almost any 5 or 6 things die a turn, and an overwhelming amount of firepower.

My other IG army was a basically a Stormtrooper army of BS4 4+sv dudes (under the old book it has Grenadiers and Stormtroopers, 60 ST's mounted in Chimeras, under the new book it was just Carapace vets in chimeras) but neither book really did the concept the justice I wanted it.

So do I miss doctrines? Most were just "hey I want like 1 or 2 of these abilities and the rest I'm spending to get units back" or the like, most were incorporated in some way into the 5E book, and they really didn't define the way an army worked or played aside from Drop Troops. Fun idea, but ultimately irrelevant as it was executed. Could be made to be very relevant and I wouldn't be opposed to this, but I really just don't feel like I lost anything without them.

Testify wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:Half of what you said is not valid; those old doctrines affected the WHOLE army not just a few 10 men squads, nor are they leaning on a few characters, like officers or priests to give said special rules.

I don't know if you knew this, but if you take lots of those 10 man squads, it becomes an army

You can only take up to 6 of those 10 man squads, 12 with 6th ed. at 2000 points, that is nothing compared to say 220 men in carapace armour at 2000 points.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:Yeah, only veterans with a CCS...how original is that.

I've literally never seen such a list, so pretty damn original.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
as for priest, having a single squad with re-roll on the charge is not as good as a whole army.
and priest don't count as an HQ in the FoC, so can't really run him as a stand-alone HQ.

Uhh have you even read the guard codex? An average blob guard list can easily fit in 2 or 3 priests.

There are plenty of posters on dakka who were very successful at utilising assault based guard. Definitely more powerful than 5th.

Testify wrote:veterans with grenedier doctrine. BS4 and carapace armour.

No hellguns.

Buttons wrote:
Yeah because no one plays mech guard any more...

Most people that play mech just spam vets, which I respond to with this "Boooo, take your BS 4 elsewhere."

Sup blobs.

Can't make blobs that have say laspistol and CCWs, or blobs with carapace armour, or blobs that can deepstrike.

FRFSRF is far more potent.

I don't care about potency, I care about making a fluffy or fun force. If I cared about potency I would buy 4th ed. codexes just to burn them because if you want to win, 4th ed. is utter gak compared to 5th, but I don't care much for winning.

Furious Charge+Re-roll to hit on assault. Sounds pretty specialised to me.

Who besides straken gives you furious charge? I hate being forced to take a special character to take a unit more than anything. Straken's rule is fine, but it is no replacement for doctrines. Also, 3 WS4, S3 attacks that reroll hits is pretty much equal, while being a lot cooler (50 dudes with chainswords, and a 51st with a giant chainsword charging?), and not forcing you to take a special character.

You can do that with veteran doctrines.

All BS4 armies are generally unfluffy. If you want BS4 troops go marines or Eldar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Testify wrote:
I've literally never seen such a list, so pretty damn original.

You have never seen a list where vets make up the backbone of an IG army? No one is stating that they are only using veterans, just that they make up the backbone like...
CCS w/ 4 SW
Vets w/ 3 SW
Vets w/ 3 SW
Vets w/ 3 SW
Vets w/ 3 SW
5 Chimeras
3 vendettas
2 Leman Russ tanks of some variant
1 Manticore


Edit: Can you clarify what is exactly "cumbersome" about the old doctrines instead of saying "LOL we got vets"?

I do miss doctrines a lot as well, all of my guard forces had a real flavour about them. Now its just colour scheme, although a valid reason, its not as much fun, and kinda makes multiple guard regiments pointless.

I'd have them back in a heartbeat.

I fail to see how a mob of men with pistols and CCW is fluffy in the slightest. Pistols are a status symbol, I find the thought quite weird in all honesty.
Also, you know you can take chimeras with normal infantry squads, right?

There are three IG troop options. One of them is completely useless, one of them is moderately effective but very expensive and very cumbserome to play, one of them is very effective and very easy to play. Don't whinge about people who want to have fun when they're playing rather than conform to your arbitrary notion of "fluff". I play mech guard and I've never fielded a Vendetta, there are many who haven't.

Testify wrote:I fail to see how a mob of men with pistols and CCW is fluffy in the slightest. Pistols are a status symbol, I find the thought quite weird in all honesty.

I assume since the doctrine is called "Warrior Weapons" it is mean to portray tribal warriors using something like a short sword or hand axe. As for the laspistol, don't model it, and take the space with a shield or 2 handed weapon. Consider it a free attack or don't use it. Also, while a pistol is a status symbol in professional military forces, large chunks of the guard aren't very professional. You can say your guys are from a tribal regiment (like the Kanak Skull Takers) who looted pistols from the dead.

Also, you know you can take chimeras with normal infantry squads, right?

Yet mechanized infantry is supposed to be rare. In the old codex you had three choices regarding chimeras, everyone gets them, no one gets them, or you take a few troop slots getting a few chimeras with basic infantry squads (ignoring taking them for elites or HQs). It was a much bigger investment than just happening to spend 55 points on a transport for anything you want.

There are three IG troop options. One of them is completely useless, one of them is moderately effective but very expensive and very cumbserome to play, one of them is very effective and very easy to play. Don't whinge about people who want to have fun when they're playing rather than conform to your arbitrary notion of "fluff". I play mech guard and I've never fielded a Vendetta, there are many who haven't.

An entirely BS4 guard army has never been fluffy period, if you find playing that fun, that is your pejorative, but likewise, many people would prefer getting doctrines without being shoehorned into taking a specific unit that isn't fluffy. I have said many times that I take vets simply for the doctrines, lamenting that I have to get a tiny BS 4 army just so I can get some carapace armour. Also, platoons are only as cumbersome as you make them, if you combine your infantry squads, or force them to fight in formation, then yes, they are cumbersome, like they should be, if you stick them in transports and spread them out, they are much more flexible and mobile.

i dont miss them. people forget the abuseable combos. remember ATSKNF? i mean, iron discipline? remember close order drill with +1i and +1ws (i think) just for being in b2b? or improved comms (especially as they didnt even need to be on the table to work!)? drop troops for your army, for free?

remember the horribly broken drop troops? i remember a friend of mine had a legal list with over 50 special weapons (meltas, flamers, plasmas, plasma pistols) through the command squads, and veterans) and a heck of a lot of las on top of that from the platoons. what made it worse was that he could re-roll all his failed (or successful) rolls for reserves, meaning turn two, without you being able to strike at it at all, in the first place, effectively his whole damned army had deepstrick, was in youre face and unloading unholy hell. I saw that list wipe out entire 1500pt armies in a single turn (or else with mop up on turn two) on a consistent basis. it took top spots in quite a number of the big tournaments back in ireland for a long time.

So no, i dont miss doctrines. t

as to the "fluff", they were no more or less *fluffy* than any other mechanism that existed to allow you to differentiate your troops.

Deadnight wrote:i dont miss them. people forget the abuseable combos. remember ATSKNF? i mean, iron discipline? remember close order drill with +1i and +1ws (i think) just for being in b2b? or improved comms (especially as they didnt even need to be on the table to work!)? drop troops for your army, for free?

remember the horribly broken drop troops? i remember a friend of mine had a legal list with over 50 special weapons (meltas, flamers, plasmas, plasma pistols) through the command squads, and veterans) and a heck of a lot of las on top of that from the platoons. what made it worse was that he could re-roll all his failed (or successful) rolls for reserves, meaning turn two, without you being able to strike at it at all, in the first place, effectively his whole damned army had deepstrick, was in youre face and unloading unholy hell. I saw that list wipe out entire 1500pt armies in a single turn (or else with mop up on turn two) on a consistent basis. it took top spots in quite a number of the big tournaments back in ireland for a long time.

So no, i dont miss doctrines. t

as to the "fluff", they were no more or less *fluffy* than any other mechanism that existed to allow you to differentiate your troops.

They were a lot more fluffy than the current system where you are either generic guardsmen with zero difference between regiments, or BS4 veterans. Also, they could potentially fix those problems if they brought doctrines back in some form or another. Also, while I never played 4th, everyone being in B2B contact would make killing them with templates pretty easy I imagine. TBH I wouldn't mind the current doctrines (still would like to be able to take a grenadier army) if it wasn't for the fact that I had to take vets. Make the current doctrines available to infantry squads and PCS and I am 60% happier with the system.