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First of all, sorry if this is in the wrong section.

The question, I was wondering which would be better for a brood of 8 Genestealers to use whilst outflanking. Toxins sacs or adrenal sacs? I have no idea since I'm new and never played 40K before. I was considering using adrenal glands because it increases strength and initiative by +1 during combat. What are your ideas? Thanks for the help.

Yeah, this should probably go in tactics. To answer the question, though, I'd lean (heavily) towards toxin sacs. With the changes from 5th, toxin sacs mean that stealers wound MEQ on a rerolled 4+, and GEQ on a rerolled 3+, and anything T 5 or higher on a 4+. Adrenal Glands, on the other and, grant you furious charge, which
A: Is only useful on the turn you charge in
B: Is useless if you multi-assault (charge more than one unit at the same time)
C: Gives a nearly-meaningless initiative boost to stealers. I6 goes before an awful, awful lot of things.
D: Gives a +1 to S which is not as good at wounding anything as the poisoned attacks from TS, even setting aside the additional chances to rend granted by the rerolls.

Texan_tyrant wrote:Yeah, this should probably go in tactics. To answer the question, though, I'd lean (heavily) towards toxin sacs. With the changes from 5th, toxin sacs mean that stealers wound MEQ on a rerolled 4+, and GEQ on a rerolled 3+, and anything T 5 or higher on a 4+. Adrenal Glands, on the other and, grant you furious charge, which
A: Is only useful on the turn you charge in
B: Is useless if you multi-assault (charge more than one unit at the same time)
C: Gives a nearly-meaningless initiative boost to stealers. I6 goes before an awful, awful lot of things.
D: Gives a +1 to S which is not as good at wounding anything as the poisoned attacks from TS, even setting aside the additional chances to rend granted by the rerolls.

Ok, thanks mate. Is it best to use toxin sacs almost all the time?

Texan_tyrant wrote:Yeah, this should probably go in tactics. To answer the question, though, I'd lean (heavily) towards toxin sacs. With the changes from 5th, toxin sacs mean that stealers wound MEQ on a rerolled 4+, and GEQ on a rerolled 3+, and anything T 5 or higher on a 4+. Adrenal Glands, on the other and, grant you furious charge, which

C: Gives a nearly-meaningless initiative boost to stealers. I6 goes before an awful, awful lot of things. FC no longer grants an initiative boost.

That said, I agree that you are better off with Toxic Stealers. That's generally how I always kit mine out. Take the points youd have spent on Adrenal Glands and buy another Genestealer or two. I don't like running stealers in any unit size smaller than 12, and 10 is my absolute minimum.

Toxin Sacs are practically mandatory on Genestealers. I've literally never played a Tyranid player who didn't give them to his Stealers. They grant a huge boost and really help them maximize their Rending chances.

Toxin Sacs work out to slightly less effective than more Genestealers unless you're already at one of the Genestealer population limits. So, don't take them, take more Genestealers.

I thought that myself but against toughness 4 you are increasing your unsaved wounds by 50% for a 21% booste in cost.

What about broodlords? I like to take them because they are a beastly character for challenging and psychic powers but they are very costly. Do Genestealers operate under the "More boys, less toys" philosophy like Orks?

shamroll wrote:What about broodlords? I like to take them because they are a beastly character for challenging and psychic powers but they are very costly. Do Genestealers operate under the "More boys, less toys" philosophy like Orks?

No, the toys Broodlords bring are worth it. And they aren't that expensive. Eldar Exarchs typically cost more, as do Thousand Sons Aspiring Sorcerers and they are both far less useful.

Herp. The loss of the FC I boost was actually the main reason I replied in the first place, and I still forgot about it.

Another word of advice- with stealers, b/c of their at-best meh durability v shooting, oftentimes it is key to find a balance between a squad that is too small to win combat, and a squad so large that it wipes out its enemy on the charge and proceeds to get shot to pieces. Stealers want to be stuck in during your opponents turn like very few units do. Personally, I usually find units of 9-10 work well for this, but YMMV, and as always, playtesting is the best way to find what works for you.

DarknessEternal wrote:Toxin Sacs work out to slightly less effective than more Genestealers unless you're already at one of the Genestealer population limits. So, don't take them, take more Genestealers.

Assuming no losses are taken, point for point, toxin sacs win out over naked stealers over all size broods against most of your common basic target types (GEQ, MEQ, TEQ, MCs). The only place they lose out is vs vehicles since toxin really doesn't help you there. Maybe when you are talking about broods of 15-20, there might be a case for naked stealers being more slightly more effective due to having more bodies and thus being able to stay effective for longer after taking losses. This minimal advantage goes away as the broods get smaller.

20 naked stealers (280 pts)
vs TEQ 6.67 - unsaved wounds
vs MEQ 11.11
vs GEQ 20.00

16 toxin stealers (272 pts)
vs TEQ 8.00
vs MEQ 13.33
vs GEQ 21.33

6 naked stealers (84 pts)
vs TEQ 2.00
vs MEQ 3.33
vs GEQ 6.00

5 toxin stealers (85 pts)
vs TEQ 2.50
vs MEQ 4.17
vs GEQ 6.67

No point in running the numbers for MCs as it should be pretty obvious that the toxin sacs will win out.

shamroll wrote:What about broodlords? I like to take them because they are a beastly character for challenging and psychic powers but they are very costly. Do Genestealers operate under the "More boys, less toys" philosophy like Orks?

Broodlords just became awesome in 6th. They're terrifying in a challenge to most potential challengers and they can now take BRB psychic powers (just make sure they don't get a witchfire power because they have BS0).

Maelstrom808 wrote:
Assuming no losses are taken,

There's the problem.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:
Assuming no losses are taken,

There's the problem.

Again though, that's only really going to apply in large broods. Genestealers die easy enough that usually 1-2 extra is not going to make enough of a difference.