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...And I hit something of a wall.

My army consisted of models I simply wanted to paint. It was a learning experience so I didn't care if I had an optimized list.

Mohsar
Woldwyrd
Shifting Stones
Shifting Stones w/ UA
Stone Warden and Woldstalkers
3x Skinwalkers
Warpwolf Stalker

25 pts.

Originally I wanted to do only 15, but the guys up there who knew how to play wanted to run 25 pts and were pretty adamant about it. Looking back they really sucked at getting someone into the game, as after me and a friend asked if they would teach us they sat there openly trying decide how mean to make their army lists. Some people...ugh.

Anyways, point is I eventually went up against Prime Scorsha, and suffice to say I had nothing that could hit her. At some point thanks to some buff or whatever she had a defense of like 18. That and the focus added to her armor meant she just sat there twiddling her thumbs while everything I had tried to smack her with absolutely no effect. Looking back at my circle book with experience on how the game is played, a fully unit of wolves of orboros could charge her with a combined attack and put the hurt on, but besides that I don't see much else that could, even with boosting. So what gives? I also had a bit of the same problem with Cryx and asphyxious. I curse of shadowed a helljack, charged my stalker through it to get to him, and even with charge and boosting all of the to hit rolls, I barely scratched him. Am I doing something wrong? Or is my list just that bad.

Edit - Also, after hearing for so long how the game was about being aggressive and "playing like you've got a pair", I was a bit disappointed at how that seems like really bad advice for this game. If you start at a match at a run, chances are you're going to get counter charged and/or peppered with ranged fire. If anything it seemed like the game was more along the lines of "wait for an opening then plunge the dagger, but don't be too hasty"

Playing like you have a pair does not mean run across the table like a Khorne Berserker

I alway suggest Battle box games for new players. Try to play against a battle box as well. Having someone build against you is not fun. Expect to win 1 game for every 20 you lose. After the game ask the other guy what you did to give him the edge over you.

Your post mentioned your friend.

Why not play games against him instead to learn ?

As above.. battlebox games..

I'd say don't get too disappointed, I lost every game I played for 2 months when I first started. Be prepared to lose, especially if they're building lists just to beat you (which is pretty harsh against someone who's new)
Just play with what you have and try and find new techniques.

Mohsar is a tricky warlock to start with, his whole bag is dictating the flow of battle through stratigic use of Pillars of Salt.

Certainly when playing against high DEF models it can feel futile, the trick is having a gameplan on how to handle them. The stalker is a sweet Warbeast but suffers from a lower end Mat, he should be able to put some damage when you do hit though.

Keep on playing, warmachin from a rules perspective is fairly easy to learn, but the tactics & strategy can be a steep learning curve.

When i first started playing i lost like my first 10 games, now its all good

Steamforged chatting about high defense

You've got the right idea, keep it simple to start with. 15pt games should be the max you play and though Mohsar is a good caster he isn't the best to learn with.

Also, when using focus/fury to boost a general rule of thumb is to boost to hit if you need 7's or more and boost damage if the ARM is 4 or higher than your power. But as you play the game you'll get experience and hopefully get the feeling as to when to boost.

Necroshea wrote:...And I hit something of a wall.

My army consisted of models I simply wanted to paint. It was a learning experience so I didn't care if I had an optimized list.

Mohsar
Woldwyrd
Shifting Stones
Shifting Stones w/ UA
Stone Warden and Woldstalkers
3x Skinwalkers
Warpwolf Stalker

25 pts.

only thing i'll say here is... more beasts. you cant reliably run a circle list with only 1 beast. warlocks need beasts to function. the dynamics of warmachine factions are infantry, supported by a battlegroup/caster, whilst hordes factions are warpacks/warlocks supported by infantry.

Necroshea wrote:

Originally I wanted to do only 15, but the guys up there who knew how to play wanted to run 25 pts and were pretty adamant about it. Looking back they really sucked at getting someone into the game, as after me and a friend asked if they would teach us they sat there openly trying decide how mean to make their army lists. Some people...ugh.

indeed, bad form on them. there are douches in every gaming environment, dont lose heart though. look around, see if there are local pressgangers or other groups to join. most WM players arent like that; most of us prefer 35, or 50pt games against vets, but are quite happy to throw out a battlebox game against new guys.

Necroshea wrote:
Anyways, point is I eventually went up against Prime Scorsha, and suffice to say I had nothing that could hit her. At some point thanks to some buff or whatever she had a defense of like 18. That and the focus added to her armor meant she just sat there twiddling her thumbs while everything I had tried to smack her with absolutely no effect. Looking back at my circle book with experience on how the game is played, a fully unit of wolves of orboros could charge her with a combined attack and put the hurt on, but besides that I don't see much else that could, even with boosting. So what gives? I also had a bit of the same problem with Cryx and asphyxious. I curse of shadowed a helljack, charged my stalker through it to get to him, and even with charge and boosting all of the to hit rolls, I barely scratched him. Am I doing something wrong? Or is my list just that bad.
"

Knock her down. slam something into her, and she's automatically knocked down. def18? more like def 5 against range, and autohit in melee. failing that, you cant go wrong with a primaled warpwolf in kaya's battlegroup (+4 mat) with boosted attack rolls, or a primaled ghetorix/feral with kromac and wild aggression (MAT9 auto-boosted).there is always a way around.

thing with gaspy is he's got high def, and high arm, backed by focus stacking. you have to hit him with a combo. WM factions can use Eiryss to strip the focus from him, and some units ignore overboosting entirely. with the stalker buffed by the above, hed happily take on gaspy. you just have to learn to do the maths, and stack the deck to favour you.

Necroshea wrote:

Edit - Also, after hearing for so long how the game was about being aggressive and "playing like you've got a pair", I was a bit disappointed at how that seems like really bad advice for this game. If you start at a match at a run, chances are you're going to get counter charged and/or peppered with ranged fire. If anything it seemed like the game was more along the lines of "wait for an opening then plunge the dagger, but don't be too hasty"

most turns are about running forward to seize ground, dealing with a round of fire and charging home. you'll get used to it. cover/concealment, sacrificial units, def buffs (iron flesh for the win!) things like stealth, and wind wall do enough to prevent shooting dominating to excess. same with counter charging. you put something far forward, it either has the ARM, def or numbers to deal with a charge or else its entirely sacrificial and is a lure to pull things in. you'll get used to the tactics. Or else you cast spells/pop feats to prevent the alpha strike. you'll learn! stick with it. its a steep learning curve, but its a rewarding one!

The Pureblood's animus also will ignore the wind rush def buff.

I'll admit as well that I will boost in what would normally be a non-boosting situation if I absolutely have to land the hit and missing will cause a game over for me. Boost to hit needing a 5? Did it the other night cause the spell had to land or I was in way deep trouble.

Necroshea wrote:

Edit - Also, after hearing for so long how the game was about being aggressive and "playing like you've got a pair", I was a bit disappointed at how that seems like really bad advice for this game. If you start at a match at a run, chances are you're going to get counter charged and/or peppered with ranged fire. If anything it seemed like the game was more along the lines of "wait for an opening then plunge the dagger, but don't be too hasty"

Playing like you have a pair doesn't mean running headfirst into the enemies army -_- Not unless you're doomreavers anyway. It just means if you camp, you're probably going to lose because of all the inherent bonuses with attacking/charging.

Those guys sound terrible.

malfred wrote:Those guys sound terrible.

Agreed. Don't get discouraged by a few jerks. Also, if it makes you feel any better, Sorscha can be rough to play against regardless of your skill level. She has all kinds of tricks to make her tough to draw a bead on.

Definitely needs more beef. Id say drop the stones and ua and a squad of infantry for another warpwolf

Not necessarily. Dropping the Woldwyrd for a Gorax frees up a point for a Gallows and more importantly gives that 8th point of fury to leech (and a great animus). Gallows are great for Mohsar since it extends his reach out for Curse of Shadows and Crevasse. Double-stoning a Primal'ed Stalker is more than abusive. Mohsar with maltreatment is also about the easiest way to get the Pain Response going on the Gorax for the least impact.

Thanks for the insight guys. However when someone says do something like you got a pair I'll equate that to going khorne berzerker, lol.

Negator80 wrote:Definitely needs more beef. Id say drop the stones and ua and a squad of infantry for another warpwolf

Indeed. I've got a couple figures that I've yet to paint and add to the force.

Box of wolves of orboros
Feral warpwolf
2x Argus
Prime Kaya
Prime Grayle
Druids of Orboros + UA
Kromac

I want to field Kromac, but getting his figure assembled is a nightmare made real.

Necroshea wrote:Thanks for the insight guys. However when someone says do something like you got a pair I'll equate that to going khorne berzerker, lol.

Negator80 wrote:Definitely needs more beef. Id say drop the stones and ua and a squad of infantry for another warpwolf

Indeed. I've got a couple figures that I've yet to paint and add to the force.

Box of wolves of orboros
Feral warpwolf
2x Argus
Prime Kaya
Prime Grayle
Druids of Orboros + UA
Kromac

I want to field Kromac, but getting his figure assembled is a nightmare made real.

Indeed. however, i think when you do youll find Kromac to be much more new player friendly (and he REALLY wants more beasts, so id hold off until you get that feral together, and a gorax)

I second Kromac. He's a beast -_-

So me and friend threw down once again tonight, only it was 15 pts this time.

My list...
Grayle
Woldwyrd
Warpwolf Stalker
6 Man unit of Wolves
Shifting Stones

His list...
Prime Asphyxious
Bane Thralls (7? 6?)
Pistol Wraith
Necrotech and Scrap Thrall
Tarturus
Necrosurgeon and 3 stitch thralls
Slayer

At the end of the game, I managed to kill his pistol wraith, his slayer, tarturus, and the necrosurgeon before he casually just popped in and offed grayle with Asphyxious like it was nothing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying the game immensely, but man if it doesnt feel like everything I fight takes all I've got, and after it's all said and done and my stuff gets beat up, he's got something else charging in.

I've heard people say that's an issue with warmachine vs hordes armies at lower point games. How high do you need to go before things start getting less tricky?

Don't feel bad, the learning curve is pretty harsh in this game. That time it didn't sound too bad since you managed to at least kill a few things. I suspect you need to learn to manage your army's strengths better and we all had to learn model positioning. If you get the chance, talk to your opponent after each game and ask him what he thought of it. You may have walked into a trap and not even realized you were being baited.

Asphyxious has enough potential attacks to kill a warlock even if you were heavily camping fury for a transfers. I would suggest never leaving a warlock in charge or walking range of him unless you have a good plan.

At 15pts you should really stick to Mangled Metal/Tooth and Claw.
In other words, Warlocks/casters and Beasts/Jacks only.
At least for a few games, to get used to the way your beasts and 'lock interact.

Allowing units and solos at that level can make some harsh match-ups.
And IMO, Gaspy at 15 is very powerful. Honestly at any level, but especially the lower.
Especially when you have solos like the Pistol Wraith, and Weapon Masters like Bane Thralls.

Also, sticking to one warcaster/warlock for at least 5 games is a good thing.
You need gameplay and time to get used to how the warlock interacts with their battlegroup and the other components of your force.
I noticed your list this time had only the beasts and shifting stones in common. So lots of new stuff.

Grayle is a straight assassin who likes to stick and move, and has the tools to do it, with Storm Rager, Sidestep, and 2 WM Pow 10s.
Make sure to put Storm Rager on him early and upkeep it, to keep him safer and make him stronger.
Concentrated force seems to be his thing. Same with most of the list you had.
Hit one thing and hit it hard enough to kill, then fade away.

Use Sprint to deal with things like the Pistol Wraith and Tartarus and then fall back to safety.
Use the WoldWyrd's animus to shut down Gaspy's spell slinging.
This means he might camp but if it changes his plan and decides to melee, it could work in your favor.

Use the Stones in conjunction with sprint to enhance your fall-back abilities.
Remember the Combined Melee Attack of the Wolves.
With reach, you can get a lot of them on one model, and can turn those mat 6 pow 9s into a single mat 12 pow 15, or a pair of mat 11 pow 12s with powerful charge.

A couple questions.
Did you use his feat?
Proper timing of Feat use can usually give you the advantage.
Also, an Advance does not have to be toward the enemy. You can use that feat movement to fall back a bit.

Was there terrain on the board?
This makes him more powerful with Elite Cadre Hunter on the Wolves, and his own Pathfinder ability.

Did you remember that Grayle can boost his damage rolls?
Weapon Master grants an additional die, so you can still boost.
So most times he can get Pow 10+4d6 on damage rolls, as long as you have the fury to spend.
Also, a Warlock/caster does not spend Fury/Focus to charge, so you get a free damage boost when he charges.

Hopefully my huge post here gives you a hint of how deep this game can get. Good luck, and keep at it. It's a great game.

Yep, Asphyxious1 is a monster in combat. To combat him you need to be aware of how he can kill you. Spells or melee.

Spells involves getting an arc node (or asphyxious) to be within 4" of you and casting Breath of Corruption 4 times, twice boosted damage. This is not going to happen with your opponents list but it's something to be aware of and doesn't work at all if you camp 2 fury and is very risky if you keep one fury on yourself.

Melee is more reliable with Gaspy because as soon as he hits then for the rest of the activation he hits automatically. and POW 15's (17 with scything touch, 20 with parasite as well) hurt alot. with a maximum of 15 of these using his feat not very much can survive that. To survive this you need to stay out of his charge range and that will be SPD + 3" (charge) + melee range (2" with reach). Put that together and as long as you are at least 11.1" away from Gaspy you are fairly safe.

Necroshea wrote:...And I hit something of a wall.

Originally I wanted to do only 15, but the guys up there who knew how to play wanted to run 25 pts and were pretty adamant about it. Looking back they really sucked at getting someone into the game, as after me and a friend asked if they would teach us they sat there openly trying decide how mean to make their army lists. Some people...ugh.

Ah that sucks, when I introduced my friends to warmachine&hordes I basically choose my army so I could explain the majority of the rules, everything from Focus&Fury diference, magical attacks, aoe, moving, benefits of their and mine feats, and so on.
Pretty bad sportmanship, however, I am a teacher so... I got some benefits over others who tries to teach others.

Paint up those druids ASAP! They are a very versatile unit and they provide some fantastic tools for your army (which is really what circle is all about). They are very difficult to shoot at with their cloud spell...hell they are difficult to melee too. Also - they create anti magic fields that stop spellcasting. Seems like they could be more beneficial than those wolves of orboros... The big issue is that they are expensive at 7 points. They probably wont fit into 15 point lists since you really need at least two beasts.

Well, a bit of a turnaround of fortune lately. We had a big warhammer tourny today in my area, and afterwards me and the buddy threw down once again. I was rocking...

Mohsar
WoldWyrd
Warpwolf Stalker
Stone Warden and Woldstalkers

His army wasn't much different than the last list I posted.

I made use of the salt pillars, and forces him to bottlekneck his forces. I just sat there and waited, and when something would get within reach I would just open fire on it, then have the warpwolf clean up anything left. Eventually he charged with gaspy, and it took almost everything I had to kill him. He offed the wyrd on his charge, and then on my turn he ate 4 volleys of stalker shots which did nothing, an activations worth of warpwolf mauling that only hit him once, and I finally brought the match to a close as I ran Mohsar in and made use of his erosion ability.

Even the victory was a bit sour. I know Orboros requires finesse, but I feel like a gunline army now.

With low points value and no objectives, thats how it might be.

There is no shame in softening up your targets at range or using your longer threat ranges as advantages. Things can take shape differently than we imagine when we finally get our army on the table(this is why I'm swapping out of retribution) and each list will play differently so don't feel bad about being a bit more shooty for now.

To be honest Moshar is not the best caster for low points games. That being said I saw that you had Kromac...

first thing...
1. if you use Kromac dont use druids, you dont need them..
2. If you use any other Warlock use druides

Why? because Kromac/druides stops enemy Spell casting

Second

If you use Kromac use Warp wolf stalker/gorax and a nice tarpit unit like Gatorman Posse(they are the best hands down) or Skinwalkers

Kromac spells

Upkeep spells

Warpath on Kromac, this is the best spell in the list and combined with lightning strike makes the Warpwolf stalker into a monster.. who can charge 9.. hit with reach 2..(11 inch threat range) then escape back to safty 9 inches... or use it to get into charge range and kill things..
Wild agression on the Stalker, Now you have 3 dices on all attack rolls... and wont miss as much.. if ever.. combined with Gorax animus you have Mat 8 with 3 dices to hit without spending a single fury to charge and 20 base damage on 5 attacks plus 18 base damage on one claw attack if you get into 0,5.. not much is left standing after that....
Inviolable Resolve on gator man posse or skinwalkers.. when they are in melee range they now have ARM 20 and 8 hits... this tarpit unit is not going down fast.. use this to tie upp one jack/warbeast while you kill the another...

Casting lightining strike or primal from Kromac on the Warpwolf stalker saves 2 fury that you can use to get more attacks or boost damage..
Headbutting stuff with the Gorax and then just finishing off High DEF targets is a good tactic..

Rift it creats difficult ground, if they don't have pathfinder they will struggle to get a charge going... Remeber you can cast it even if you are to far away to hit, it will just scatter but with luck it will end up betwen you and your opponents army...
Bestial Enemy models cannot cast/be used to channel spells in this model's CTRL area (14 inches) for one round. This protects you from any and all spellcasters, as well as Arc Nodes.

Last we have Kromac..

Charging with Kromac after you uppkept all your spells leaves 4 fury on him.. Cast lightning strike on him.. then charge. Hit with your 2 attacks spend fury on them.. to hit or damage.. then you use your feat.. BAM you get another 7 fury and you are now in beast form keep Hacking then escape back to safety if you need to..

Hope this helps.. Remember Circle is all about getting into the action and getting out.. Hit and RUN is your friend with this setup.. Trading blows is not something that fluffy beast are good at, they die way to fast... Not getting hit is key..

Building from this basic list you can create really nasty Combos

Example
Gnarlhorne satyr, Kromac, Feral warpwolf and a Blackclad wafare..

Cast Gnarlhorne Animus on the Warpwolf it gets +2 on charge.. Use Warpwolf +2 speed warping.. Hit a target with the blacklad and it gets another +2 move... Ops! you now have a 15 inch charge Range.. with a 11 inch Escape with Warpath,

Another Fun caste to use is Epic krueger

using a Gallows grove, druids, Woldwarden and Epic Kruger you can drag models from across the other side of battlefield to be safly killed on your side of the board. Using gallows and the druids spells...

Shift the gallows growe, activate Epic Kruger and attack your opponents Warlock/Warbeast/jack/warcaster. First you cast the Gallows spell Range 10... pull the enemy model d6 inches towards the tree. then channel Telekinesis to move the enemy model another 2 inches and put i'ts back arch towards you hihi ... then use druides to pull it even closer. Range 10 spell and d3 drag with back arch bonus to hit. finish off with Woldwarden before you attack with another gallows using Geomancy haha... Nice Epic surprise for your opponent as he watches his caster get draged across the battlefield and then get face stomped by your hole army ... I have pulled models 12-20 inches using this nasty little trick... Turning him around with Telekenisis for Back arch Bonus Muahaha

Why did you drop the Shifting stones. The threat range they bring is insane. As a new player I would use the stones as much as possible. This is one of the best tricks Circle brings to the table.

Also if your regular opponent is using lots of infantry try pKrueger, and start using the Stean Roller pack. Objectives and scenarios make this a whole new game.

ICleadpeople wrote:Why did you drop the Shifting stones. The threat range they bring is insane. As a new player I would use the stones as much as possible. This is one of the best tricks Circle brings to the table.

Also if your regular opponent is using lots of infantry try pKrueger, and start using the Stean Roller pack. Objectives and scenarios make this a whole new game.

I would agree the shifting stones are a must on +25pts.. but on 15 not so much... You can get by without them.. But adding shifting stones On a Kromac. Stalker, gorax, Gatorman Posse list, is a good thing... I would go for the Pure blood next as then you can sneak past free strikes to execute enemy casters or move through Obstructions.. And use its animus when you need to kill off targets with buffs.. or gak that needs magical weapon to hit... remeber the stalker also gets Ghostly if you have the pure Blood...

Warpwolf stalker with Berserk/warpath Kills 10 infantry models in one round unless they are using tough.. and even then they need to roll alot of 5-6 to survive... If they are not spread out across the board that is..
Gatorman posse Executes 10 Infantry models also in one round.. 2 attacks MAT 7 POW 13 and Reroll all faild to hit and have 1 reach attack.. Suported by a gator shaman they are undead(dont give souls) and Tough MUAHHA ARM 20... and get +2 to charge living models.. Blackclad mark cast on a target that is a 12 inch charge range with +2 reach..

Stone Warden and Woldstalkers saw that you had this unit also.. this one is GREAT for triggering Warpath if you need it to get into range with a Warbeast... Using Zaphyr(placement, sneak away from free strikes, and you can move 3 inches and then AIM) gives them RAT 8 most of the time... Power 12.. if you dont have to use Zaphry you can also get the +1 cumulative bonus on them.. Giving the last Woldstalker 16 power hit very nice for softening stuff upp and killing things to trigger warpath..