Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm trying to tweak my 5th Ed collection to a competitive 6th tournament list. It needs more tweaking and I'm looking for comments.

Rune Priest (100pts)
Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane

Wolf Priest (100pts)

Wolf Guard Pack (205pts)
2 x WG with Combi & Wolf Claw
2 x WG with Combi & Power Fist
1 x WG terminator with Combi & Wolf Claw

5x Wolf Scouts + Meltagun, meltabombs (110pts)

10x GHunters + MotW, 2x Plasmaguns, PW, Standard (200pts)

10x GHunters + MotW, 2 x Meltaguns, PW, Standard, Rhino (230pts)

5x GHunters + MotW, Plasmagun, Razorback + TL LC

5x GHunters + MotW, Plasmagun, Razorback + TL LC

5x GHunters + MotW, Plasmagun, Razorback + TL LC

6x LFangs + 3x ML's, 2x PC (160pts)

6x LFangs + 5x HB's (115pts)

6x LFangs + 4x ML's, 1x LC (155pts)

Aegis Defense Line + Quad gun (100pts)

2000 points exact.

The GH squad with no transport hangs out behind the defense line with the wolf priest, the rune priest and two LF squads. Rune priest uses Hurricaine to nerf flyers and skimmers if necessary. Wolf Priest takes preferred enemy against infantry and joins the double plasmagun squad. He could move over to one of the long fang squads mid game if they hang out close enough.

The three Razorbacks can advance 6" per turn shooting their LC's with the GH's hiding out of LOS behind them. Heavy bolters can follow them, or they can hang out at the defense line depending on who my opponent is. Under most circumstances, I don't intend to initiate CC (overwatch hurts). But the wolf guard are there just in case. They'll probably take a mix of combi-plasma and combi-melta. Combi-melta with the scouts.

Not really sure what to do with the Meltagun squad, but I felt like I needed it to deal with AV 13+. I could switching out the Rhino for a DP, or just ditch it altogether.

I am not sure what you can do with those wolf scouts that a wolf priest with Saga of the Hunter cannot do. They get two melta shots and then got killed or stalled. That's 150+ points for a possibility of killing a Rhino/Vindi/Pred.

Maybe they can infiltrate and move in close enough + hoping that the opponent will let you get close to the Land Raider. In short, they need to kill a Land Raider/Basilisk/Manticore to make their points back and with the current nerf to assault from outflank/infiltrate, I don't see how it will happen.

Also, I am not sure how Hurricane can nerf flyers. They ignore dangerous and difficult.

I like the WP with dual plasma gun that has utility with the Long Fang. I am not so hot on those HB LF. How about switching all TLLC Razorbacks to TLHB, then use the extra points to upgrade 5x HB LF to 5x ML LF. You get more fire power, better saves, similar amount of HB shots and for a cheaper price.

Missiles suck now. The HB long fangs can move and still shoot snap shots and they are ferocious at overwatch. Besides that, they're cheap and if I drop the lascannons from the razorbacks, I'll have no reliable way to deal with AV14. Also..in two of the scenarios, they can claim objectives, but they'll probably have to move to get to them.

You're right about murderous hurricaine. I was confused. Maybe take Divination instead? It would be nice to let my devastators re-roll to hit. Especially the HB's !

Scouts. hmmm They don't have to go behind enemy lines. But I can see how they'll have a hard time surviving. I could drop the Rhino, the Scouts AND the HB's for a Land Raider Crusader.

Twin-Linked shots are valuable, especially to armies that don't get many. I'd leave the Razorback TLLCs alone or make them Assault Cannons. Personally I'd prefer ACs.

Your strategy is more defensive than is my personal preference. I like to be aggressive with my Rune Priest so I can shut down enemy psykers more often. Note that I'm not saying this is a bad thing necessarily. Just a different play style.

I don't think the Scouts really fit in anymore. Not being able to charge out of Outflank hurts. More so, it doesn't really fit the rest of your strategy. Wolf Scouts provide forward projection while your strategy seems to rely on the enemy getting in your kill zone (within 36" of your back line). A 5 man squad is not going to pull that off on its own, and the Meltabombs on them are probably going to be wasted points if your enemy is expecting them (and they should be).

Are your Grey Hunters rocking Axes or Swords? The Wolf Claws all being AP3, I'd hope for Axes. AP2 weapons in combat are a bit light in your list outside of Rending hits. I like to trust to my luck a lot in this game sometimes, but I'd still want more than one other AP2 weapon in melee at 2000 points.

Edit: Can Heavy weapons fire in Overwatch? I thought they couldn't.

I am not sure how ML sucks. They will eventually get Flakk missile upgrade option in future updates (or FAQs). They can still snapfire like HB. The only time I see my LF squad moving is when I see those flyers about 18"+ in front of me. I will cast Reroll to hit on the 5-man MLs, move them up 6" so the flyers (if they survive) will not be able to shoot back at my ML next turn and then snapfire (with re-roll) them out of the sky. This would take advantage of the Flyers 18" blind zone.

When the LFs are not moving, ML will kill more than HB unless it is a horde of Orks, Tyranids or Paladins. You already have plasma cannon for that.

leohart wrote:
I am not sure how ML sucks.

They probably don't, I'm just typed a knee-jerk reaction. They don't suck, they're just not as good as in 5th because you can't stun-lock with a glance anymore.

They will eventually get Flakk missile upgrade option in future updates (or FAQs). They can still snapfire like HB. The only time I see my LF squad moving is when I see those flyers about 18"+ in front of me. I will cast Reroll to hit on the 5-man MLs, move them up 6" so the flyers (if they survive) will not be able to shoot back at my ML next turn and then snapfire (with re-roll) them out of the sky. This would take advantage of the Flyers 18" blind zone.

When the LFs are not moving, ML will kill more than HB unless it is a horde of Orks, Tyranids or Paladins. You already have plasma cannon for that.

I have some ML's. But the heavy bolter can deal out many many more shots. 15 S5 AP4 shots is not to be trifled with. Against anyone but marines, it's nearly the equivalent of 15 plasma shots that don't get hot. Think about it. Eldar, Necron, Tau, Orks - none of their troops have an armor save better than 4+ and you just can't match 15 of these shots with 5 missiles.

cowmonaut wrote:
I don't think the Scouts really fit in anymore

Agreed. It's just that they're painted really well. I'm not averse to finding a better use for those points though. Give me some ideas.

Are your Grey Hunters rocking Axes or Swords? The Wolf Claws all being AP3, I'd hope for Axes. AP2 weapons in combat are a bit light in your list outside of Rending hits. I like to trust to my luck a lot in this game sometimes, but I'd still want more than one other AP2 weapon in melee at 2000 points.

*sigh. They're swords, sadly. I made them for 5th ed and they're painted superbly so I can't change them. You're right though, axes would have been better in retrospect.

Edit: Can Heavy weapons fire in Overwatch? I thought they couldn't.

YES! They can! (awesome right?) Blast weapons cannot shoot overwatch. Heavy weapons can. So Krak missiles, lascannons, multimeltas and heavy bolters can shoot overwatch.

Ah! Blast weapons is why I was thinking they couldn't. I take quite a few Plasma Cannons some days...

cowmonaut wrote:Ah! Blast weapons is why I was thinking they couldn't. I take quite a few Plasma Cannons some days...

But it's only really worth it to shoot overwatch with the HB's because when you need 6's to hit, you're going to need lots of shots. Or some re-rolls, divination style. Preferably both.

One thing that has not been mentioned yet.

Special CC weapons on Wolf Guards.
Beeing challenged you'll want them equipped with a weapon that will strike at reagular I instead of the good old PF. WC are nasty, Power Swords are cheaper. Now PFs find a very effective place in 8to9 men units of grey hunters.

I will drop MOTW on the 3 little GH units in Razorbacks. I'll don't want them in CC and if this is gonna happen the MOTW wouldn't do a big difference.

Don't group 2 PC in each LF pack. If they will burn you'll already have to take a test.
A good setup may be 3x ML - 1x PC - 1x LC. I'm testing it for the moment and I'm quitely happy with.

Scouts can still have functions but not this way. First of all I will drop the meltabombs. You'll can't assault and you'll can't throw meltabombs. They already have krak grenades and rarely they will survive the turn they arrive.

I would drop the Wolf Priest. I prefer a second Rune Priest honestly. Of course with Divination. Both of them with Divination.

Last thing, a part the 2 10x units of Grey Hunters (one of them almost immobile) you have anything that could contrast/tarpit an enemy deathstar.

At least a well tooled unit of TWC should be considered conpulsory. I neven leave home without.

Grugknuckle wrote:

leohart wrote:
I am not sure how ML sucks.

They probably don't, I'm just typed a knee-jerk reaction. They don't suck, they're just not as good as in 5th because you can't stun-lock with a glance anymore.

But they can wreck vehicles much easier now, which is a huge plus. The new glancing rules make every weapon strong enough to glance better than in 5th.

@Toban: Since you are bringing TWC, it make sense to not have a CC buff like Wolf Priest. There is still use for WP especially with combi-melta TDA wg + dual plasma gun in outflank mode.

I used to run 2x PC per 3x ML. But I have since switched to 4 PC via my BA ally. I gain access to FNP via Priest, 4PC is 5 pts cheaper for BA and I can still reliably man that gun on the Aegis Defense Line.

leohart wrote:@Toban: Since you are bringing TWC, it make sense to not have a CC buff like Wolf Priest. There is still use for WP especially with combi-melta TDA wg + dual plasma gun in outflank mode.

I used to run 2x PC per 3x ML. But I have since switched to 4 PC via my BA ally. I gain access to FNP via Priest, 4PC is 5 pts cheaper for BA and I can still reliably man that gun on the Aegis Defense Line.

This. And also remember that while the rune priests with divination can give re-rolls to hit, they have to make a psychic test first. That can be nullified and you will get perils of the warp on 1 out of every 18 throws of the dice. When you're rocking with two rune priests, you'll be making two psychic tests every turn. In a 7 turn game, you've got a really good chance to fail one or more of those tests. In contrast, the preferred enemy granted by the wolf priest lets you re-roll any to hit AND to wound rolls of 1 WITHOUT making a psychic test. When you're re-rolling one's the chances of getting hot are small (2.78% per shot).

Also Toban, I strongly dislike TWC and I'm not going to buy a box of them just for this tourney.

But (missile launchers) can wreck vehicles much easier now, which is a huge plus. The new glancing rules make every weapon strong enough to glance better than in 5th.

Actually, you could wreck vehicles in 5th this way too by repeatedly rolling "weapon destroyed" and "immobilized" results. However, you would get the added bonus of actually reducing the vehicles capabilities in the process. Trust me. I've done the math.

Special CC weapons on Wolf Guards.
Beeing challenged you'll want them equipped with a weapon that will strike at reagular I instead of the good old PF. WC are nasty, Power Swords are cheaper. Now PFs find a very effective place in 8to9 men units of grey hunters.

The WG with power fists will be attached to the squads that have the Rune Priest and Wolf Priest. If challenged in an assault, I will get to make a decision to accept with either the power fist wolf guard, or the power weapon independent character. All of the other WG have claws.

I will drop MOTW on the 3 little GH units in Razorbacks. I'll don't want them in CC and if this is gonna happen the MOTW wouldn't do a big difference.

I will probably do this.

I'm thinking about moving the long fangs around. I could put both plasma cannons in a squad with 3 HB's. Then have a squad of 5 missile launchers.

@Grugknuckle: I am going to give the 5x HB a try tomorrow and it doesn't work out when killing those pesky Rhino, I will blame your math :-D

Just kidding.

leohart wrote:@Grugknuckle: I am going to give the 5x HB a try tomorrow and it doesn't work out when killing those pesky Rhino, I will blame your math :-D

Just kidding.

15 heavy bolter shots at a Rhino's front armor has a 9.46% chance to glance it to death if the Rhino has a 5+ cover save. If you cast the divination power on it to get re-rolls, it goes up to 17.93%

If you can catch the Rhino in the open with out cover, then the numbers are 22.8% and 38.77% respectively.

not kidding.

That sounds awefully low. How does that stack up against ML?

I am a "mean" man. I do things that perform on average (pun intended).

leohart wrote:That sounds awefully low. How does that stack up against ML?

I am a "mean" man. I do things that perform on average (pun intended).

The missile launchers are better against Rhino's. Obviously. But will you be shooting them at Rhinos, or will you find something better? Like Dreadnoughts, Predators, Vindicators, Nightscythes, Dakka Jets, and so on.

But since you asked...shooting 5 Krak Missiles at a Rhino's front armor

27.53% chance to destroy with 5+ cover and NO divination re-rolls.
50.25% chance to destroy without cover and NO divination re-rolls
73.55% chance to destroy without cover and WITH divination re-rolls
42.33% chance to destroy with 5+ cover and WITH divination re-rolls

But for the record, I don't plan on shooting heavy bolters at Rhinos. You shoot them at infantry and stuff like that. Maybe the odd land speeder that presents itself.