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So, I was thinking of creating a new doctrine system like 4th ed. for a while, but after a discussion thread I decided that the simplest course of action would be to increase the number of veteran doctrines and expand them so that more units can have them. The only real things you can’t take are largely redundant such as chem inhalers, die hards, and other morale stuff. The only total loss is Cyber Enhancements, which was just a 6+ invul save which you had to drop 20 points for.

So comment, criticise, and if you have any ideas for new doctrines, particularly to represent stuff like traitor guard or Gue’Vesa please feel free to post them.

Basic Doctrines: Can be given to Platoons, and all squads in them. Any doctrines taken by a squad in the platoon must be applied to every squad in the platoon.
1 Point per Model: Marksmen: Models may reroll any 1s rolled to hit in shooting.
1 Point per Model: Dirty Fighters: Models may reroll any 1s rolled to hit in close combat.
2 Points per Model: Grenadiers: Replace flak armour with carapace armour.
2 Points per Model: Stealth: Take camo cloaks.
3 Points per Model: Demolitions: Take meltabombs for the entire squad and a single demo charge.
4 Points per Model: Heavy Infantry: Replace their lasguns with hot-shot lasguns.
1 Point per Model: Light Infantry: Gains the move through cover special rule.
3 Points per Model: Gland Soldiers: Every model gains +1 strength.
2 Points per Model: Fanatics: Gains the rage special rule.
1 Point per Model: Warrior Weapons: Every model replaces their lasgun with a pair of close combat weapons or a laspistol and close combat weapon.
1 Point per Model: Great Weapons: Every model replaces their lasgun or laspistol with a two handed +1 str AP 5 close combat weapon.
1 Point per Model: Advanced Recon: The squad gains the Scout special rule.
3 Points per Model: Bolters: The squad replaces any lasguns with bolters and any laspistols with bolt pistols.
4 Points per Model: Pulse Weaponry: The squad replaces any lasguns with pulse rifles or pulse carbines, and any laspistols with pulse pistols. (Must be allied with Tau)

Veteran Doctrines: Can be given to veteran squads, or for half the price company command squads.
3 Points per Model: Grenadiers: Replace flak armour with carapace armour.
3 Points per Model: Forward Sentries: Take camo cloaks and snare mines.
3 Points per Model: Demolitions: Take meltabombs for the entire squad and a single demo charge.
4 Points per Model: Heavy Infantry: Replace their lasguns with hot-shot lasguns.
1 Point per Model: Light Infantry: Gains the move through cover special rule.
2 Points per Model: Assault Specialists: Unit gains +1 WS.
3 Points per Model: Gland Soldiers: Every model gains +1 strength.
2 Points per Model: Fanatics: Gains the rage special rule.
1 Point per Model: Warrior Weapons: Every model replaces their lasgun with a pair of close combat weapons or a laspistol and close combat weapon.
1 Point per Model: Great Weapons: Every model replaces their lasgun or laspistol with a two handed +1 str AP 5 close combat weapon.
1 Point per Model: Advanced Recon: The squad gains the Scout special rule.
3 Points per Model: Bolters: The squad replaces any lasguns with bolters and any laspistols with bolt pistols.
4 Points per Model: Pulse Weaponry: The squad replaces any lasguns with pulse rifles or pulse carbines, and any laspistols with pulse pistols. (Must be allied with Tau)

Rough Rider Doctrines
2 Points per Model: Grenadiers: Replace flak armour with carapace armour.
2 Points per Model: Assault Specialists: Unit gains +1 WS.
1 Point per Model: Advanced Recon: The squad gains the Scout special rule.
4 Points per Model: Modified Mounts: The squad gains the Skilled Rider special rule.
3 Points per Model: Bolters: The squad replaces any lasguns with bolters and any laspistols with bolt pistols.

Storm Trooper Doctrines
3 Points per Model: Gland Soldiers: Every model gains +1 strength.
2 Points per Model: Assault Specialists: Unit gains +1 WS.
30 Points: Demolitions: Take meltabombs for the entire squad and a single demo charge.

Ogryn Doctrines
5 Points per Model: Grenadiers: Replace flak armour with carapace armour.
5 Points per Model: Warrior Weapons: Replaces ripper gun with a pair of close combat weapons
5 Points per Model: Great Weapons: Replaces ripper gun with a two handed +1 str AP 5 close combat weapon.

Also, this exists to represent all manner of human soldiers, "Gland Soldiers" could be genetically modified guardsmen, they could also be mutated chaos worshipers, or skitarii of the Adeptus Mechanicus, those regular guarsmen with HSLG could just be regular guys who for some reason have the best guns available to the IG, they could also be inducted guard under the control of an inquisitor and given access to the best equipment as a result.

Also, some ideas for potentially fluffy combinations
Infantry squads+Grenadiers+Pulse Weaponry: 11 PPM: Well Integrated Gue'vesa
Veteran squads+Grenadiers+Pulse Weaponry: 14 PPM: Gue'vesa Veterans
Infantry squads+Light Infantry+Stealth+Advance Recon: 9 PPM: Jungle Fighters/Light Infantry Regiment
Ogryn+Great Weapons: 45(55) PPM: Krourk Ogryn Auxilia (Ogryn too dumb and aggressive to use ripper guns)
Rough Riders+Grenadiers:12(17) PPM: Some sort of heavy cavalry

And some combos that might be broken
Veterans+Great Weapons+Assault Specialists+Gland Warriors+Fanatics: 15 PPM: 30 Str 5 AP 5 attacks on the charge that hit MEQs on a 4+. Might want to put some limitations, particularly regarding combining squads
Storm Troopers+Demolition: 115 Points: Deepstrike next to a vehicle or squad, pump in 4-5 plasma or 2 meltagun shots and drop a template next to it, all for 135-155 points. Only real solution IMO would be to remove it outright, or decrease the cost to 1ppm and remove the demo charge, fluffy or not.

I really like thconcept to this , but I am more in favor of Kasrkin being their own unit and having + 1 strength and weapon skill

Kasrkin229 wrote:I really like thconcept to this , but I am more in favor of Kasrkin being their own unit and having + 1 strength and weapon skill

Well you could do that. Grenadiers+Heavy Infantry+Assault Specialists+Gland Soldiers+Veterans. Or simply do Assault Specialists+Gland Soldiers+Storm Troopers. Either way you are spending 20 or 22 points per model for them, which is quite a bit for what are still T 3 infantry.

True but I'm more in favor of elites lol

As I said take storm troopers with gland soldiers and assault specialistis if you want them as elites.

A lot of the options seem a little overpriced IMHO

Makarov wrote:A lot of the options seem a little overpriced IMHO

Would you like to suggest a price, or can you mention any in particular? For the HSLG at least I made it so that to make veteran storm troopers it would cost almost the same per model as regular storm troopers, so 7+3+4 points per model equals 14 ppm, which is about right considering they get a heavy weapon, an extra special weapon, and are troops, but lose the special operations. The first three already were priced at 30 points, Assault specialists is 20 points because +1 BS boosts a vet squad's cost by 20 points over regular infantry, so +1 WS should be much the same, gland soldiers can allow you to get str 5 power weapon attacks if you take a power axe in a blob, and fanatics can let something like blob guard get a terrifying 155 attacks on the charge. As for the 10 point ones I can't lower them too much more, they also need to be even numbers so the price can be halved for command squads.

here's my take, some of these would be too powerful on Veterans so this is just for Platoons.

all Squads within a single Platoon have to take the same Doctrines

20 Points_Grenadiers: Caraqpace Armour
20 Points_Forward Sentries: Camo Cloaks
10 Points_Light Infantry: Move Through Cover + Infiltrate. Cannot Take Chimera
5 Points_Assault Specialists: +1WS. Infantry Squad and Platoon Command lose Heavy Weapon options.
15 Points_Gland Soldiers: +1S
15 Points_Zealots: Hatred + Fearless
10 Points_Warrior Weapons: gives entire squad Laspistols
5 Points________________or replace Lasgun with Laspistol
0 Points_Urban Fighters: Replace Lasgun with Shotgun
5 Points_Stubborn: Stubborn
10 Points_Sharpshooters: Re-Roll 1's to hit at range
20 Points_Medic: One model gives Feel No Pain to the Squad
10 Points_Trappers: Defensive Grenades
20 Points_Inferno: Either Replace Special Weapon option with Heavy Flamer or Heavy Weapon Option with Inferno Mortar 48" S5 AP4 Blast

the Inferno Mortar is an old IG weapon, I don't know if it's still in use by someone.

Although I like the idea, surely it makes Stormtroopers and Penal Legion become redundant?

I didn't know people used Penal Legion. I think they're 10-20 points too expensive as they have a random skill and no special weapon choice. I'm not saying they should have a special weapon though. they just don't seem deadly enough to kill many foes and not tough enough to use their Stubborness.

Lotet wrote:I didn't know people used Penal Legion. I think they're 10-20 points too expensive as they have a random skill and no special weapon choice. I'm not saying they should have a special weapon though. they just don't seem deadly enough to kill many foes and not tough enough to use their Stubborness.

Not to go off topic. But I went to a 1000pt Tourney in Feb where the winning army was 60 Penal Legion, Straken and 2 Hydra's.


I think you should keep this just for Vets. Would your bog standard cannon fodder get all these special weapons and abilities?

phantommaster wrote:

Lotet wrote:I didn't know people used Penal Legion. I think they're 10-20 points too expensive as they have a random skill and no special weapon choice. I'm not saying they should have a special weapon though. they just don't seem deadly enough to kill many foes and not tough enough to use their Stubborness.

Not to go off topic. But I went to a 1000pt Tourney in Feb where the winning army was 60 Penal Legion, Straken and 2 Hydra's.


I think you should keep this just for Vets. Would your bog standard cannon fodder get all these special weapons and abilities?

Because vets aren't given new equipment in fluff, they effectively loot it while commanders ignore it because they are effective. Fluffwise there are grenadier and heavy infantry regiments that wear carapace armour, there are light infantry who are trained to fight in jungles and make the best use of cover. Point is vets are thieves and there are plenty of regiments that are armed with special equipment either due to influence or homeworld conditions. Catachans are top tier light infantry, Kanak Skull Takers are great in hand to hand, Terrax Guard are like storm troopers lite, etc.

Lotet wrote:here's my take, some of these would be too powerful on Veterans so this is just for Platoons.

all Squads within a single Platoon have to take the same Doctrines

20 Points_Grenadiers: Caraqpace Armour
20 Points_Forward Sentries: Camo Cloaks
10 Points_Light Infantry: Move Through Cover + Infiltrate. Cannot Take Chimera
5 Points_Assault Specialists: +1WS. Infantry Squad and Platoon Command lose Heavy Weapon options.
15 Points_Gland Soldiers: +1S
15 Points_Zealots: Hatred + Fearless
10 Points_Warrior Weapons: gives entire squad Laspistols
5 Points________________or replace Lasgun with Laspistol
0 Points_Urban Fighters: Replace Lasgun with Shotgun
5 Points_Stubborn: Stubborn
10 Points_Sharpshooters: Re-Roll 1's to hit at range
20 Points_Medic: One model gives Feel No Pain to the Squad
10 Points_Trappers: Defensive Grenades
20 Points_Inferno: Either Replace Special Weapon option with Heavy Flamer or Heavy Weapon Option with Inferno Mortar 48" S5 AP4 Blast

the Inferno Mortar is an old IG weapon, I don't know if it's still in use by someone.

Grenadiers/Forward Sentries: Kept the same cost they currently had in the codex because honestly it wasn't overpriced, guardsmen are just too expendable to make extra protection meaningful
Light Infantry: My main problem with giving them infiltrate is that it could lead to havoc regarding SWS and HWS. After hearing about complaints of the old Drop Troops doctrine I decided it would be best to leave infiltrate and deepstrike out.
Assault Specialists: I don't mind losing the HWT option, but as I stated I would like to keep them even numbers so the price can just be halved for command squads (both platoon and company levels)
Gland Soldiers: Same odd number problem, also it can make basic infantry squads insane in close combat when combined with Straken (basic infantry squad w/ a power maul, gland soldiers and furious charge from straken, str 5 on the charge and a str 7 power maul on the charge)
Zealots: Fearless is a big no-no, imagine taking that in a single infantry squad in a blob, the entire squad might (depending on how you look at the rules I suppose) get fearless for just 15 points. Beats a commissar in every way.
Warrior Weapons: I would like to keep it at just 10 points and replacing the lasguns outright.
Urban Fighters: I would suggest some cost since a shotgun is significantly better if you ever plan on assaulting and can be taken by infantry squads and blobs.
Stubborn: Partially invalidates commissars. I would suggest a boost to like 10 points since I can't imagine a commissar's combat prowess and summary execution being worth more than 25 points.
Sharpshooters: Vets as troops largely makes this redundant.
Medic: As long as these can go to non-vets than no, too OP.
Trappers: I see nothing wrong with this at all.
Inferno: Does an inferno mortar already exist or did you just make that up? Not a criticism, just curious.

Also, didn't see the part where this only applies to infantry platoons, so some parts are invalidated and I am too lazy to change them at the moment. I suppose I will later.

Edit: Do you intend for this to completely replace the current doctrines allowed to both vets and platoons?

nah, I only meant it for Platoons.

Carapace at 20 points seems fair as the squad is only 50 points to begin with. same goes for Medics and Camo-Cloaks
similarly, Rough Riders should have to pay 40 points or so, since they cost 105 for a full squad. maybe they lose Fleet instead.
Zealots is pretty pointless as I could just get a Priest and a Commissar.
Inferno Mortars are from the 2nd. turns out my memory was fuzzy and they were only used with Heavy Mortars i.e. Griffon Tanks.
I went overboard with melee skills I think.

what I listed made them out to be cheap because if I bought 2 or even 3 doctrines they would cost so much that I might as well just get more bodies instead.

I'd like to see more strategic skills though. like Outflank or Conscripts with special Weapons. how about Bikes? that would make an awesome unit. mmm, some Bolters would be nice as well. Scouts might be a good alternative to Infiltrate.

as for using even numbers for points cost, well, the Skaven Army Book in WHFB lets you upgrade their slaves with weapons and shields for half a point each. it doesn't take much to stretch your mind around the results.

Lotet wrote:nah, I only meant it for Platoons.

Carapace at 20 points seems fair as the squad is only 50 points to begin with. same goes for Medics and Camo-Cloaks
similarly, Rough Riders should have to pay 40 points or so, since they cost 105 for a full squad. maybe they lose Fleet instead.
Zealots is pretty pointless as I could just get a Priest and a Commissar.
Inferno Mortars are from the 2nd. turns out my memory was fuzzy and they were only used with Heavy Mortars i.e. Griffon Tanks.
I went overboard with melee skills I think.

what I listed made them out to be cheap because if I bought 2 or even 3 doctrines they would cost so much that I might as well just get more bodies instead.

I'd like to see more strategic skills though. like Outflank or Conscripts with special Weapons. how about Bikes? that would make an awesome unit. mmm, some Bolters would be nice as well. Scouts might be a good alternative to Infiltrate.

as for using even numbers for points cost, well, the Skaven Army Book in WHFB lets you upgrade their slaves with weapons and shields for half a point each. it doesn't take much to stretch your mind around the results.

20 points for carapace and camo cloaks I can understand (at least for platoons), and I will not add medics, simply because there is too much potential to abuse it.

Rough Riders probably shouldn't pay 40 points just for an armour save that almost every non-basic weapon can ignore. I might make it something like 2 points per model, and the same with assault specialists.

I am a tad hesitant to add a completely new weapon. I mean if I was making an entire IG fandex I would be willing to add it, but this is just meant to be doctrines.

While I want doctrines to be useful, I don't want any of the doctrines to be an obvious choice, where it is always better to take them.

How about these?
10 Points: Advanced Recon: The squad gains the Scout special rule.
4 Points per Model: Modified Mounts: The squad gains the Skilled Rider special rule.
30 Points: Bolters: The squad replaces any lasguns with bolters and any laspistols with bolt pistols.

Also, conscripts should never get special weapons, nothing inherently against the idea since their BS is so low, but I can't imagine it ever being fluffy to give conscripts special weapons. Besides that, I can't think of how to add bike infantry without making an entirely new unit.

Hey, since you seem to be a bit interested in adding new weapons and units, perhaps you should make an entire fandex. You could use and modify my doctrines as you wish, and I would gladly help.

I'm not sure why you're worried about Medics. if it's about having 1 Medic heal 50 guys, well, that's what the "all Squads within a single Platoon have to take the same Doctrines" rule was for. I wouldn't apply that for Conscripts though.

someone will need to confirm this for me but I believe that the previous Imperial Guard Codex let conscripts have special weapons and they were the only guys to have 50 people in a single squad.

for Rough Rider armour, weren't they unable to use Carapace in the old Doctrines? they can hit like a thunderbolt and if I only need to pay 2 points per 10 point rider so they can double their survivability against the basic weapons (basic weapons being 85% of weapons) of most armies in the game, then that's an easy choice.

and I'd love to make an Imperial Guard fandex but I'm so lazy and it'd turn into a big horrible mess as I try to stuff a bunch of pointless things in there. like S4 shotguns for Abites with underslung 18" grenade launchers while they ride on bikes. have some heavy cavalry that are stronger, tougher and slower. 30" max range Long Lasrifles to get a good threat radius across the battle field or a 18" Assault_1 Lascarbine. get some 1 shot rockets for the conscripts for really cheap like they had in WW2. have a variety of options for the Psykers so they can be a lightning clad force of destruction. give some people Jet Packs (the Tau kind) so they can harass people while they flee back.

but really, the Imperial Guard doesn't need all that. small things are nice to add flavour, big changes just distract from the point of the army... unless you're Chaos. I really want all those options back, more than the customization of every previous Codex.

Lotet wrote:I'm not sure why you're worried about Medics. if it's about having 1 Medic heal 50 guys, well, that's what the "all Squads within a single Platoon have to take the same Doctrines" rule was for. I wouldn't apply that for Conscripts though.

Still, the problem is that FnP is already too widespread, and the IG doesn't care about the individual as much as say space marines (granted it makes sense since a guardsman is worth far less than a marine). Also, what if you get a vet squad with camo cloaks or carapace armour and a medic, the squad would have a 4+ cover or armour save on average as well as FnP.

someone will need to confirm this for me but I believe that the previous Imperial Guard Codex let conscripts have special weapons and they were the only guys to have 50 people in a single squad.

They did have access to heavy and special weapons, but it doesn't mean they should. Either way one will probably only ever take it for fluffy reasons so I suppose I could make a section for conscript doctrines. How does one HWT or special weapon per ten conscripts sound? Costs 10 points for the entire blob not including the price of the weapons.

for Rough Rider armour, weren't they unable to use Carapace in the old Doctrines? they can hit like a thunderbolt and if I only need to pay 2 points per 10 point rider so they can double their survivability against the basic weapons (basic weapons being 85% of weapons) of most armies in the game, then that's an easy choice.

I could increase the cost of carapace armour, but I like the option, for a more heavy cavalry (knights, cuirassiers, samurai, cadians on horseback with carapace armour, what have you) type of feel. Perhaps 4 points per model, pricing a 10 man squadron with it about the same as a squadron with Kamir IIRC, who is a total badass now.

and I'd love to make an Imperial Guard fandex but I'm so lazy and it'd turn into a big horrible mess as I try to stuff a bunch of pointless things in there. like S4 shotguns for Abites with underslung 18" grenade launchers while they ride on bikes. have some heavy cavalry that are stronger, tougher and slower. 30" max range Long Lasrifles to get a good threat radius across the battle field or a 18" Assault_1 Lascarbine. get some 1 shot rockets for the conscripts for really cheap like they had in WW2. have a variety of options for the Psykers so they can be a lightning clad force of destruction. give some people Jet Packs (the Tau kind) so they can harass people while they flee back.

I know that feel. I have tried making a fandex, but I keep adding and removing things.

but really, the Imperial Guard doesn't need all that. small things are nice to add flavour, big changes just distract from the point of the army... unless you're Chaos. I really want all those options back, more than the customization of every previous Codex.

Speaking of Chaos, perhaps there should be some sort of mutation doctrine to represents traitor guard that has spent too much time in the warp.

Added a couple of Ogryn doctrines, giving access to simple things they have access to or might get access to in fluff such as carapace armour (Nork gets it, so other Ogryn could potentially get it), a pair of close combat weapons, or a single big close combat weapon.

Modified some of the wording and added possible combinations that would be fluffy or broken. If you can think of any combination that might be fluffy or broken please bring it up, and if possible suggest a solution beyond removing it outright, such as mandating that other doctrines are taken, limiting or removing the ability to blob them, or changing their save or movement rules or something.