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As per subject. If a Wave Serpent moves and has its 5+ Jink save, but it is 24-36" away from a shooter, does it really get a 2+ cover save? Didn't come into play in my last game but it makes skimmers seem pretty ridiculously tough at long range since every mission might be fought in mostly night fight.

shrouded and stealth add to your cover saves, so at 24-36 it gets shrouded adding 2 to it's cover save. If its only jink save then it becomes a 3+ cover save, 2+ if flatout

In a word? 'yes'.

Yes, they do exactly that.

For the benefit of Shock_at, I'd like to point out that stealth and shrouded stack. At 24-36 you get a 2+ just for moving. You don't need to go flat out at all.

Thanks for confirming what I thought by the way. It just seemed too dang good to be true.

though at 24-36" you only gain shrouding and not stealth, so you only get +2 to your cover save

If the target is 25"-36" then yes - it's only a 3+ cover because you only gain Shrouded.

However, if the target is exactly 24" away then the criteria from both Shrouded and Stealth would be met as Stealth's cap is 24" and Shrouded's beginning is 24" so it would be possible to get a 2+ cover save that way.

Iranna.

Iranna wrote:If the target is 25"-36" then yes - it's only a 3+ cover because you only gain Shrouded.

However, if the target is exactly 24" away then the criteria from both Shrouded and Stealth would be met as Stealth's cap is 24" and Shrouded's beginning is 24" so it would be possible to get a 2+ cover save that way.

Iranna.

lol I'm trying to think whether it'll be worth the argument trying to convince my opponent when I pull that one!

(mind you I always forget to use the nightfight rules )

I'm going to look at the rules but jink is not a cover save...... (After looking at the rules, jink is a cover save.) Another fail on GW part. So a skimmer in the open that has jink gets a 5+ cover save. Really, cover from what? It should be a dodge role? So now give them another advantage by making them harder to hit at night. Auto cannons don't have glow in the dark ammo but a flier gets a bonus to dodge shot's they can't see. Awesome Fail GW.

MJThurston wrote:I'm going to look at the rules but jink is not a cover save...... (After looking at the rules, jink is a cover save.) Another fail on GW part. So a skimmer in the open that has jink gets a 5+ cover save. Really, cover from what? It should be a dodge role? So now give them another advantage by making them harder to hit at night. Auto cannons don't have glow in the dark ammo but a flier gets a bonus to dodge shot's they can't see. Awesome Fail GW.

It's a game, reality has nothing to do with it. It's 40k! Trying to apply reality to it is futile, as it's already unbelievable with things like Orks.

That said, Jink does not necessarily represent dodging; it could also represent high speed, high maneuverability. Where a treaded or wheel vehicle follows along the ground in a predictable path, skimmers can change altitudes, directions, and speeds at will, in a much less predictable manner.

I'm retired military. Hovering doesn't make you harder to hit but moving does. So Jink should be a dodge and not a cover save. GW just wanted to generic the game down. Slow moving vehicles are easy to hit. The vehicles in 40k are not fast moving until they move over 30 inches a turn. If GW wanted fast moving fliers to be harder to hit when moving at higher speeds then they should have given them a +1 for each speed increase.

Hover +1 Dodge
Combat +2
Fast +3
All Out +4

Now instead of giving people a bonus to a cover save for night fight, they should have just given minuses to hit.

24-36, -2 BS
12-24, -1 BS

The Jink save represents the skimmers ability to move on the Z axis. So any evasive manoeuvres they do are more effective than those of normal vehicles.

And nobody "dodges" bullets/shells by seeing their trajectory, glowing or not glowing. You either have special equipment to achieve this or you do a set pattern of manoeuvres and pray they work.

dnanoodle wrote:As per subject. If a Wave Serpent moves and has its 5+ Jink save, but it is 24-36" away from a shooter, does it really get a 2+ cover save? Didn't come into play in my last game but it makes skimmers seem pretty ridiculously tough at long range since every mission might be fought in mostly night fight.

The mechanics of the save have already been addressed so I'll comment on a later part of your postl, specifically the part about skimmers being "ridiculously tough at long range since every mission might be fought in mostly night fight". The situation you're describing (a 2+ cover save on the first turn) rarely be encountered as it requires the following:

1) your opponent must have a skimmer

AND

2) you to roll a mission that is using night fighting and to roll for it to be active on the first turn

AND

3) your opponent must go first because the jink save is only applicable after you move.

AND

4) your opponent must camp (moving 1" or so) way back in his deployment zone in order to stay the needed 25+ inches away from you.

AND

5) you must sit without advancing in your own deployment zone in order to stay 25+ inches away from the target.


While possible, it's highly unlikely that ALL of the above which are necessary for the dreaded 2+ vehicle cover save will be true on a regular basis. So, yes, IF you face an opponent using skimmers and IF you roll for night fighting to be active and IF your opponent goes first and IF he chooses to not advance and IF you choose not to advance, skimmers will be ridiculously tough for a turn.

Warboss, now that I've gotten a few games in with my own skimmers i can say it wasnt hard for me to make great use of NF to get great cover. I failed to get first turn in all my games and just hid behind buildings for a turn. One game I lost a Hornet first turn and another game I lost a War Walker. But both of those games were night fight and a 4+ from ruins turned into a 2+ and saved me handily.

Not every army wants to be 24" away from the enemy on turn two. Not all of them can get there. And many armies, especially those using lists based on 5th edition strategies, have static heavy weapons units like long fangs and lascannon/autocannon heavy weapons teams. They're in the back and have to either move or shoot on some pretty ugly cover all game. I think 3+ cover will play a big part in my games.

Have to say I'm disappointed that stealth isn't 12"+ though. I hadn't been reading that as a range. Think I confused it because of where it says they stack. At least that makes the stealth Warlord trait very useful.