Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

What with the new Flyer rules, in specific the one about nosediving when destroyed, I had an idea about what might happen when a Flyer had no weapons.

I came up with the idea of a Kamikaze strike. Rules are:

If a flyer has all of its hull points destroyed, it can elect to Kamikaze strike any enemy unit within 90 degrees Line of Sight & the Flyers top speed. This attack gives an aditional kill point if it causes any casualties. It hits automatically, and is regarded as S:6 AP:- (Against vehicles it is S8 AP- Ordnance Barrage). Th Kamikaze Strike cause 2D6 hits among the target unit. Instead of placing a blast template, use the Flyer hull as the template.

The unit may attempt a single Death or Glory shot at full BS, the rest must take snapshots. Each individual model in the target unit may attempt an evade if the Flyer is not shot down. To do so: Roll a D6. On a 5+, it is thrown 6" towards it's own board edge and is pinned. Jump Infantry & Jet Bikes evade on a 4+ and are not pinned, but are thrown 12". LOS is reduced to 5+, but may be used in conjunction with the dodge (essentialy a rerollable 5+ for ICs). If this roll is failed, the models under the Flyer Hull takes a wound as normal. Any available saves may be taken, LOS being limited to 5+ (representing it coming to fast). If the model is not wounded or saved, it is trapped under the wreckage until it's Movement Phase of the following game turn, where to move away it must take a Difficult Terrain Test. If the distance is insufficient to get the model completely out from under the wreckage, it remains trapped until it's next movement phase, where it may attempt to escape again.
If the wound is not saved, the model is wounded as normal, including any ID that may occur .

After the Kamikaze attack has been made, the flyer remains in play for purposes of measuring where the trapped survivors are & giving cover saves. However, if a cover save is made against the flyer, roll for damage as normal. Glances have no affect, & penetrating hits get +1 on the Damage Chart. If you successfully destroy the Flyer (explodes), roll to wound the survivors as you would do anyone else in range.

Any thoughts?

Get rid of the "Ignores EW" and give back armour saves and this rule should have potential...

EW is about surviving the most brutal of wounds, not about avoiding being turned to sub-atomic-matter-jelly-stuff

That would be the most brutal of wounds. EW can survive damaging shots that can destroy the most heavily armoured tanks. Give back all invulnerable saves to be allowed and treat the strength as unmodified front armour 1/2 (rounding down) +3. But as it stands it is far too powerful.

EDIT: Also i would say AP2 not 1. Or AP3 ignores armour saves would be better.

I like the idea, but here is my opinion on what it should be, remember that you are sacrificing a flier to make this attack.

Can only be used during the movement phase, and only if the flier zoomed during the previous turn (it has to build up speed). The fliers hull is the template.
Units have a chance to dodge the incoming attack. For each model under the template, it's owner rolls that many D6. For each 6 that player rolls. He moves the model farthest from the center of the hull so that it is no longer under the 'template'. Allow "look out sir" as normal.
Models under the template suffer a S10, AP1 hit with no cover save allowed (allows invulnerable saves as normal). Additionally, although the hit does not cause instant death, it still counts as causing instant death for the purpose of disallowing FNP and similar saves.

@Phantom, I like the bit about having to zoom last turn & the 6+ dodge. I've added those, albeit with a twist..

@keyboard: I don't think it should allow all Invuns, because I doubt a Storm Shield would stand up to a massive chunk of metal hurtling through it at Mach something-ridiculous. Also, it's only AP1 vs infantry, adding an AP value to the vs vehicle attack (AP3)

IHateNids wrote:
@keyboard: I don't think it should allow all Invuns, because I doubt a Storm Shield would stand up to a massive chunk of metal hurtling through it at Mach something-ridiculous. Also, it's only AP1 vs infantry, adding an AP value to the vs vehicle attack (AP3)

Yet they can brush of lascannons, vindicator shells, thunder hammers and powerfists. Also do you know what Mach is a measurment of. And in a battle feild of that size they aren't doing Mach anything. scale it all up and they are no-where near Mach something ridiculous speeds. The guns would be impossible to aim and aiming the flyer would have to be done from miles and miles away before they could even see the targets.

EDIT: 12" also seems abit far to me. i can see 6". Also what about for bikes and jumpers evading on a 4+ to emphasize their increased speed. But they do fall back 12" but ignore the pinned. Thats still 1 turn to get back to where they were when they ran turn.

you may be sacrificing a Flier but you could alway aim at something that doesn't have Eternal Warrior. I'd find it hard to believe that you'd have any difficulty finding a target that fits that criteria. who has EW that you want to obliterate? wouldn't stop Yarrick from getting up again anyway, heh heh. doesn't stop a refractor field which only covers the head. also Storm Shields have built in force fields. but why wouldn't an Imperial Assassin get thier 4+ Dodge save? they can dodge a Deathstrike Missile. heck Ghazkull can survive 3 Deathstrike Missiles but he can't take 1 plane to the face?

now we just need some big Tau ship to lay a template that covers everything.

does the Plane explode or become a wreck? may you roll for it and if you get a wreck it drags across the ground in the direction it was travelling.

@redkeyboard: I can see your argument, but Im pretty sure a SS cannot stop something the size of a Flier. And I was using Mach as a speed mesurement to emphasise my point, I know it usually measures sound.

@Lolet: I pretty much want to ensure that if you sacrifice however-many points of Flier, that whatever it lands on is dead. I have however edited to accomodate the explosion

IHateNids wrote:@redkeyboard: I can see your argument, but Im pretty sure a SS cannot stop something the size of a Flier.

If a Crux Terminatus can, the Storm Shield can. It's the same kind of technology.

And no to ignoring Eternal Warrior; EW protects from Hellstorm Cannons wielded by an Imperator Titan, as well as Deathstrike Missiles, essentialy a Tactical Nuclear Missile. Your aircraft is nothing in comparison.

IHateNids wrote:@redkeyboard: I can see your argument, but Im pretty sure a SS cannot stop something the size of a Flier. And I was using Mach as a speed mesurement to emphasise my point, I know it usually measures sound.

@Lolet: I pretty much want to ensure that if you sacrifice however-many points of Flier, that whatever it lands on is dead. I have however edited to accomodate the explosion

Mach measures speed over the speed of sound. Mach 1 is the speed of sound, Mach 2 double the speed of Sound, Mach 3 3 times the speed of sound etc.
And considering fluff wise power armour can allow to to survive a building collapsing on you. Terminator armour even more so a storm sheild could be thrown into a building the size of 10 empire state building whilst they were on fire and had explosions going on everywhere and come out unscathed.

IHateNids wrote:EW is about surviving the most brutal of wounds, not about avoiding being turned to sub-atomic-matter-jelly-stuff

On the contrary, Eternal Warrior works perfectly against D-Cannons and Conversion Beamers which do exactly that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

redkeyboard wrote:Terminator armour even more so

Correct, we have in one fluff sidebar a Terminator being stepped on by a Titan and being unscathed.

DarknessEternal wrote:

redkeyboard wrote:Terminator armour even more so

Correct, we have in one fluff sidebar a Terminator being stepped on by a Titan and being unscathed.

Hardly "unscathed", his Terminator Armour cracked and broke down completely and he suffered grievous wounds, but he lived to tell the tale. Still a testament to the quality of TDA though.

Or could just give fliers ram? then they have to take off again if they somehow survive next movement phase, like 6" move only, normal targetting etc

Can I just ask, why are people objecting to droping a 150 point (average) guaranteed kill on someone, EW or not?

On a different note, I'm sure that the velocity of a Flyer going Supersonic will have more power behind it than a Titan's footstep.

Also, I am just trying to figure out what saves should be allowed. I am saying no SS because it is so much smaller than the Flyer, therein cannot stop it or get the energy field up around the Termie fast enough, whereas the Crux is active at all times.

IHateNids wrote:Can I just ask, why are people objecting to droping a 150 point (average) guaranteed kill on someone, EW or not?

On a different note, I'm sure that the velocity of a Flyer going Supersonic will have more power behind it than a Titan's footstep.

Also, I am just trying to figure out what saves should be allowed. I am saying no SS because it is so much smaller than the Flyer, therein cannot stop it or get the energy field up around the Termie fast enough, whereas the Crux is active at all times.

The Shield is also active at all times, and I HIGHLY doubt that your flyer has more power behind it than a Hellstorm Cannon or a Deathstrike Missile.

And people are objecting because paying 150 points to guarantee a kill on Draigo and all his buddy Paladins is beyond broken, not to mention that every character that I know of with EW is at least 200 points to start with.

It was just an Idea, I thought if you were going to kill one of your own units you should be guaranteed a kill on your target.

How about I remove ignores EW, but causes ID regardless of toughness & give the saves that canbe made?

If I rightfully recall, there already is rules for a flyer crashing into the ground, is there not?

Yeah but 'Nids is trying to make rules for flyers to deliberately crash to the ground, the rules in the rulebook are when it gets shot down

Yes. Wolf, I am trying to devise a use for flyers that have no weapons, are unable to be repaired & not give out a kill point.

But if my indicators can't be repaired and they have no weapons should they be able to go flat ohut and get an auto kill on drago. And that 150pt flyer could still kill characters like mephiston, captins librarians rune priests and not to mention the swarm lord carnifexes hive tyrants trygons. The rule is just to powerful.

Give it the D3 wounds ability

or pass an intiative test and suffer d6 wounds on top of the s10 ap1 hit?


To show he's dodged a flying wreck coming his way or something?

Uh, if someone's shot all the weapons off your flier, you shouldn't be allowed to kamikaze it to deny a kill point and automatically kill off an opponents model. It should still give a victory point (if it applies).

Your opponent shouldn't be punished because he rolled well, or you made a tactical blunder and put your flyer in a position to lose it's weapons.

It could be a S8 AP 2 Large blast. A plane isn't going to be as effective as a melta beam at destroying vehicles, and it's not going Mach anything if it's on a battlefield and aiming itself at something.

Or it should even follow ramming rules, but be a large blast template at it's final destination.

It should definitely not ignore EW.

It should also scatter with no - for BS.

Alright, edited. Thoughts on this version?

IHateNids wrote:& does not give a kill point

No, you shouldn't be allowed to crash your flyer to avoid giving the opponent a kill point.

but hits automatically

No, fluffwise, a pilot trying to crash his plane is likely under a lot of stress and pressure, not to mention that he is probably taking fire from all directions. Rulewise, it is just awful since it guarentees heavy losses on the enemy side already, no scattering makes that worse.

and is regarded as S:X AP:1 (always wounds on 3+. Against vehicles it is S8 AP- Armourbane).

No, why should a Greater Daemon or space marine suffer a wound as easily as a guardsman. It isn't poison or a warp or psychic weapon that melts their brain. Also, no part of a plane hitting a tank gives an armourbane feel, perhaps count it as ordinance, but a plane won't actually punch through the armour. I suggest a flat Str 6 AP 4

The wounds from the Kamikazie Strike cause instant death (unless target has EW, then it is D3 wounds) . Instead of placing a blast template, use the Flyer hull as the template.

No and no, why should it kill a carnifex in one hit when a dedicated anti-tank shell from a vanquisher can't, also the flyer hull idea overly benefits larger flyers, and honestly serves no purpose, just use a large blast template.

Each individual model in the target unit may attempt an evade: Roll a D6. On a 5+, it is thrown 6" towards it's own board edge and is pinned. Jump Infantry & Jet Bikes evade on a 4+ and are not pinned, but are thrown 12". LOS is reduced to 5+, but may be used in conjunction with the dodge (essentialy a rerollable 5+ for ICs).

Honestly I would rather get a snapfire shot at it beforehand. Perhaps let the unit take a morale test, if it passes it can snapfire at the flyer, if it fails than it must take the dodge test. Also have the test be for the whole unit, simpler and speeds things up.

If the model is not wounded or saved, it is trapped under the wreckage until it's Movement Phase of the following game turn, where to move away it must take both a Dangerous & Difficult Terrain Test (roll the Dangerous Terrain, then if the model is Ok, roll for distance to move.).

Stop adding rules "just because." When a transport explodes you aren't trapped under wreckage and forced to take a difficult and dangerous terrain test. Just drop a crater where the plane crashed and be done with it.

If the wound is not saved, the model is ID'd (takes D3 wounds if EW)

No, they should take a single wound like every other weapon.

After the Kamikazie attack has been made, the flyer explodes 2D6" S7 AP-,

So if by some miracle the enemy unit survives the attack they have to survive another high strength hit?

Any thoughts?

If this was an official rule a lot of TFGs would use is simply because it is better than the actual flyer half the time. IG take a single vendetta (or two or three non-squadroned vendettas) fly them towards the enemy shooting as they go, and slay a land raider, squad of terminators or other elites, or a very expensive special character in a single hit. Anything you kill beforehand is just icing on the cake.

How about Death or Glory? Kamikazies were often shot down before they could hit a ship in WW2. And also, I would reccomend something along the lines of a morale check before it can be done, although that would require an extra stat, so I'm not sure how it would be done.

I just want to say that it's 'kamikaze', if you want to use a word from someone else's language, use it right...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamikaze

Back on topic, I'll just say I +1 what Buttons said.

Edited, thoughts on this one?

Also, thanks Baronyu for correcting my bad spelling

I dunno. Cool concept, execution seems off... I'm going to trade a 100+ point flyer for one attack that the opponent has like a million ways to prevent?

How about this... if a flyer runs out of hull points he can try to make the attack as you defined against a unit within 18 inches and 90 degrees. But instead of crazy S8 nonsense it's just as if you were in a ground transport that exploded - S4 AP - large blast.

That way it's unlikely to have any real effect on a game (as flyers are already pretty damn potent) but it's still a fluffy addition.

Actually, that makes a lot more sense. BTW, I had the hits almost guaranteed to destoy whatever it landed on, but look down the thread to see all the complaints about it. -_-

Edited to what is hopefully the final version