Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Here is the list:

HQ
-Fateweaver [333]
-Bloodthirster [275]
[Unholy Might]
[Blessing of the Blood God]
Troops
-Plaguebearers x 5 [75]
-Plaguebearers x 5 [75]
-Plaguebearers x 5 [75]
-Plaguebearers x 5 [75]
Heavy Support
-Daemon Prince [275]
[Daemonic Flight]
[Iron Hide]
[Unholy Might]
[Mark of Tzeentch]
[Breath of Chaos]
[Boon of Mutation]
-Daemon Prince [275]
[Daemonic Flight]
[Iron Hide]
[Unholy Might]
[Mark of Tzeentch]
[Breath of Chaos]
[Boon of Mutation]
-Daemon Prince [275]
[Daemonic Flight]
[Iron Hide]
[Unholy Might]
[Mark of Tzeentch]
[Breath of Chaos]
[Boon of Mutation]

Total - 1733

Okay now here is how you run this list

Daemonic Assault - - PUT ALL 5 FMCs IN ONE WAVE. You are able to do this because you have 4 other units in the army. Why do this you say? BECAUSE I CAN. That's why. You do this because they will kill so so so so so so so much easier if there are 5 of them on the board at a time. Even if you don't get the preferred wave, just sit your PBs in the backfield and they will not get killed because they are t5 and have a 5+ re-roll-able save (because of fnp). then most if not all of your FMCs will come on next turn and will kill. But if you do get your preferred wave of the 5 killy things, here is what you do.

Put fateweaver first, this will be the 6" bubble where you will center your FMCs the first turn. once Fateweaver is down (if you don't like the place where the 6" bubble is, you can elect to run Fateweaver after all the other FMCs have been deployed up to 2d6) you then deploy the other FMCs down in a circle around Fateweaver. (make sure they are within 6" of him, and you can run them 2d6 towards Fateweaver if they aren't) So after they are deployed, and before they have shot or run, you have to declare whether they are swooping or gliding. I always elect to swoop, because they will have basically auto-protection against the blobmass of shots from infantry that will usually be the culprit for killing them otherwise. basically if they are swooping, they are up in the air, and all shots made against them have to be snap shots at BS1. Even if they do get hit, and they do fail the grounding test, the likeliness of them actually taking a wound from those are little (because of the re-rollable 3+ armor 4+ invulnerable) Anyway, basically this means that all units that do not have skyfire have to hit with 6s and will barely-to-never wound. and they will rarely be able to assault any FMCs this turn because they have to knock them out of the sky. This will keep all of your FMCs alive till the turn when they can wreck-face.

After they have "survived" the first turn of doing nothing, here is where you can get a little creative. You can make them move like jump monstrous creatures instead of flying, and they can assault and kill pretty much damn near everything. There are 4 breaths of chaos in the army for anti-infantry, and taking out tank's hull-points (glance on a 4+). And all of the army can easily kill any tank. Even a land raider. if they elect to move as jump monstrous creatures and not flying, they can elect to smash, and all FMCs have base s10 if they are smashing and hit against rear armor of every vehicle. Even Fateweaver has s10 when smashing. Even though they halve their attacks, they still almost auto-pen all of the time. So they destroy vehicles. Handily. If you do it right, you can kill up to 5 tanks the first turn that you assaulted. so they are pretty damn awesome.

Breath of chaos is so useful, more than you can imagine, because this ignores armor and cover saves, auto-wounding on a 4+. This is extremely useful against those pesky little blob masses of infantry, especially because you have 4 of those in the army.

For those annoying HQs that boost the opponent's list, or you just don't like them, there is Boon of mutation. There are 4 boons in this list to be exact. Even though they are only 6" range, you can elect to swoop and get near them without the fear of them assaulting you or rapid-firing at your butt off or some stuff like that. but then you can boon of mutation the crap out of any model you choose (up to 4 times). this will make them take a toughness test (no "look out sir" possible), and if they fail, they are removed as a casualty. NOTE: THIS DOES NOT CAUSE "INSTANT DEATH", THEY ARE SIMPLY REMOVED AS A CASUALTY. This means that Boon of Mutation works even against models with eternal warrior. so even if the opponent has a 2+ invuln re-rollable on their HQ, and are impossible to kill in combat, they will just go poof if they fail any toughness tests. Boon of Mutation is so useful, especially if you can pinpoint a HQ or character hoilding the opponents list together.

Hey! Pissed off by those Flying vehicles? Well, do i have the solution for you. It is a brand new product called Vector Strike. Having a hard time hitting them with snap shots all the time? well vector strike allows you to hit flyers automatically with basically your CC attacks. If you move over flyers (or any vehicle or unit for that matter) while swooping in your movement pahse, you can elect to use vector strike as one of your shooting attacks that round. You only go at base strength, but because Unholy Might's upgrade adds the strength bonus "to their profile", DPs now have base strength 6 and the Bloodthirster has base strength 8. Bloodthirster is the model you look towards usually to kill flyers. He gets d3 +1 auto-hits against the side armor of any flyer, and will most of the time pen once or twice. He is the go-to model for killing flyers that are bothering you outright. But you can also kill flyers with DPs, and even Fateweaver (s5). So what was once an annoying as crap flyer that was hard to kill is now a burning piece of rubble on the ground. You can also use vector strike against normal vehicles without even moving on the ground. But one of the most useful uses of vector strike is the ability to fly over a unit and then breath of chaos the crap out of them because you can still shoot one weapon at normal BS and everything else as snap shots. This is good because you will kill a lot of models in the unit without them getting to attack back (combat or shooting).


Anyway yeah...

I playtested this list against a couple of my friends, one who had won a local tourney recently, and one who had come in second in that same tourney. I wiped them both. No kidding. I have only playtested twice so far, but it has been a lot of fun when i playtest, because i am learning everyday. And because this is only the second list i have ever made in 40k. Ever. I will tell you, it is very rewarding to run a list of daemons that actually might be considered competitive.

Let me know what you think of the list,

Thisisnotpancho

Daemon Prince isn't a flying monstrous creature.

He is a flying monstrous creature in the Chaos Daemons codex, but he is not a flying monstrous creature in the Chaos Space Marine Codex. It states so in the official FAQ for Codex: Chaos Daemons


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Look on the first page at the bottom right
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420308a_Chaos_Daemons_6th_Ed_V1.pdf

oh. kool. i wonder if they'll change it for CSM. wonder fs they are making a flyer for CSM. flyers+FMC. That sounds like fun.

Hah unfortunately i think that they are only going to make a new flyer, and not change the Daemon Princes with wings to FMCs. It is kinda stupid that the DPs in Daemons are FMCs, and the DPs in CSM aren't. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense...

It is a good army, but it isn't perfect. It's strong but it's also not very balanced. I've ran it 5 times at different points levels using very similar lists (1x nurgle, 4x tzeentch). Out of the 5 games, 3 times I didn't get my preferred wave. And out of the 5 games, I lost 3 of them.

Boon of Mutation and Iron Hide are unneeded on the Princes. You won't ever get to use Boon since you will spend both your ranged attacks on a Vector Strike and Breath. Iron Hide increases your armor save by 1 against light arms. Since you should be near the Fateweaver, the rerollable 4++ should be plenty. 275 is simply too many points on a Prince.

This opens up a bunch of points for something like a squad of Fiends or Flamers. Both give you extra damage against hordes, which you desperately need.

As far as not getting your preferred wave, you have to play it safe, and if you do you should usually have the advantage. Boon of mutation is very useful as well as iron hide, because the usual killers of MCs and FMCs is lots of small arms fire. Boon of mutation is basically the best ranged attack in the game for taking out any model. It is like jaws of the world wolf x 4. And you can opt to not vector strike and shoot both ranged attacks. Clearly you can still run this list wrong, it is not an auto-win list, but if you run it right, you got a pretty Damn good shot.

Anyway for boon of mutation, say you are going up against a drago-wing list with paladins. How do people usually deal with him when he gets a 3+ invulnerable, a 2 up armor and fnp and 4 wounds with look out sir? Or what about epidemius in a list? Or what about a psyker or farseer that have been rolling well for psychic attacks and are attached to a unit? Boon of mutation is more useful than you can imagine, and you only realize the potential of it when you play.

Just a couple of quick notes:
You only remove the boon model if you don't have a chaos spawn to place there instead.
Taking boon and NOT having a spawn along to put in place is just silly. Who would not want a free model in there wrecking face against their enemies?

One other thing, you have enough extra points to add 1 plaguebearer to one of the units, so why run short points like that?

Hah well I have only one good reason for both of the decisions: I'm really lazy. Too lazy to buy a chaos spawn model. And also I like rolling 4 dice at once for the reserve rolls, it feels cool. It also makes it symmetric.

Boon has a 7% chance of killing 4 toughness ICs. 5/6 to hit, 1/2 to fail toughness test, and 1/6 to fail Look Out Sir. 33% of the time you kill a normal model and 60% of the time you do nothing. For 30 points that hardly seems worth it to me. Its even worse when fighting an IC with greater toughness. Compare this to Bolt which will cause instant death against 4 toughness models 80% of the time. With a 4++ save you still kill a model 40% of the time, which is just as good as your Boon but provides extra utility as anti-tank. You are also getting less utility out of your points since you have spent points on three abilities (you implicitly pay for Vector Strike) but can only use two.

With 4 Breaths and the Bloodthirster I can't imagine you would have trouble against low model count armies that run lots of Terminator Armor or lots of ICs so I wouldn't really worry about handling armies like that. Against Draigowing you just kill all their Paladins with breaths.

I'd be more concerned with dealing with Green Tide or Blob Guard or parking lot armies.

Personal opinion of course.

UncleMeat wrote:Boon has a 7% chance of killing 4 toughness ICs. 5/6 to hit, 1/2 to fail toughness test, and 1/6 to fail Look Out Sir. 33% of the time you kill a normal model and 60% of the time you do nothing. For 30 points that hardly seems worth it to me. Its even worse when fighting an IC with greater toughness. Compare this to Bolt which will cause instant death against 4 toughness models 80% of the time. With a 4++ save you still kill a model 40% of the time, which is just as good as your Boon but provides extra utility as anti-tank. You are also getting less utility out of your points since you have spent points on three abilities (you implicitly pay for Vector Strike) but can only use two.

With 4 Breaths and the Bloodthirster I can't imagine you would have trouble against low model count armies that run lots of Terminator Armor or lots of ICs so I wouldn't really worry about handling armies like that. Against Draigowing you just kill all their Paladins with breaths.

I'd be more concerned with dealing with Green Tide or Blob Guard or parking lot armies.

Personal opinion of course.

Your calculations for Boon is slightly off. It's 5/6 to hit and 1/3 to fail T4 toughness test. There is no Look Out Sir as Boon doesn't cause a wound. Thus, you have a 28% of killing a T4 IC, which is actually very good considering you get to snipe him.

Yes, and that is only shooting one boon of mutation, because there are 4 in the list, you could target more than one of them at an hq and just have him removed from play. And keep in mind you have 4 boons per turn. Then the next turn you have 4 more boons. And you can use it in cc and while your target is in cc. And no, since it is only a toughness test and not a wound, there is no look out sir possible.

Well, 40k can be so simple. Give somebody 5 tough scoring units and 5 FMCs. This army plays straightforwardly. After some more playtests, it will get boring.
Is there are counter to this army? Frankly I don't know. GK should be one.

I remember we played a multi-player game at HH GW I, Emperor's finest vs. Chaos. One guy has shown up with a circle of Bloodthirsters which can be played in an Apokalypse game. We told him it is not an Apokalypse game. But he didn't listen. Actually, he was not very accessible to arguments and so he played his circle. A rediculus matchup. By the way, I played at his side (CSM) and so didn't care. Death to the false Emperor!

Counters? Tyranid horde, ork Hordes. board control for the win! If the MCs land theyll drown in attacks, and most of your targets for Boon will either have high toughness or be so numerous that one casualty hardly matters. Against a TMC, hoping for that 6 to fail the test inst very reliable, plus it ll hurt next turn if you dont pull it off.

Well normally you shouldn't depend on boon of mutation to kill a lot of models. Keep in mind that you have 5 fmcs that are extremely tough to kill in cc and can do a good amount of damage in cc.. As well you have breaths of chaos and vector strikes to wipe a considerable amount of infantry. GK would not do well against this list. Bloodthirster has 2+ invulnerable (re-rollable because of fateweaver) against any psychic or force weapons (which is every GK basically).

thisisnotpancho wrote:Here is the list:

HQ
-Fateweaver [333]
-Bloodthirster [275]
[Unholy Might]
[Blessing of the Blood God]
Troops
-Plaguebearers x 5 [75]
-Plaguebearers x 5 [75]
-Plaguebearers x 5 [75]
-Plaguebearers x 5 [75]
Heavy Support
-Daemon Prince [275]
[Daemonic Flight]
[Iron Hide]
[Unholy Might]
[Mark of Tzeentch]
[Breath of Chaos]
[Boon of Mutation]
-Daemon Prince [275]
[Daemonic Flight]
[Iron Hide]
[Unholy Might]
[Mark of Tzeentch]
[Breath of Chaos]
[Boon of Mutation]
-Daemon Prince [275]
[Daemonic Flight]
[Iron Hide]
[Unholy Might]
[Mark of Tzeentch]
[Breath of Chaos]
[Boon of Mutation]

Total - 1733

Okay now here is how you run this list

Daemonic Assault - - PUT ALL 5 FMCs IN ONE WAVE. You are able to do this because you have 4 other units in the army. Why do this you say? BECAUSE I CAN. That's why. You do this because they will kill so so so so so so so much easier if there are 5 of them on the board at a time. Even if you don't get the preferred wave, just sit your PBs in the backfield and they will not get killed because they are t5 and have a 5+ re-roll-able save (because of fnp). then most if not all of your FMCs will come on next turn and will kill. But if you do get your preferred wave of the 5 killy things, here is what you do.

Put fateweaver first, this will be the 6" bubble where you will center your FMCs the first turn. once Fateweaver is down (if you don't like the place where the 6" bubble is, you can elect to run Fateweaver after all the other FMCs have been deployed up to 2d6) you then deploy the other FMCs down in a circle around Fateweaver. (make sure they are within 6" of him, and you can run them 2d6 towards Fateweaver if they aren't) So after they are deployed, and before they have shot or run, you have to declare whether they are swooping or gliding. I always elect to swoop, because they will have basically auto-protection against the blobmass of shots from infantry that will usually be the culprit for killing them otherwise. basically if they are swooping, they are up in the air, and all shots made against them have to be snap shots at BS1. Even if they do get hit, and they do fail the grounding test, the likeliness of them actually taking a wound from those are little (because of the re-rollable 3+ armor 4+ invulnerable) Anyway, basically this means that all units that do not have skyfire have to hit with 6s and will barely-to-never wound. and they will rarely be able to assault any FMCs this turn because they have to knock them out of the sky. This will keep all of your FMCs alive till the turn when they can wreck-face.

After they have "survived" the first turn of doing nothing, here is where you can get a little creative. You can make them move like jump monstrous creatures instead of flying, and they can assault and kill pretty much damn near everything. There are 4 breaths of chaos in the army for anti-infantry, and taking out tank's hull-points (glance on a 4+). And all of the army can easily kill any tank. Even a land raider. if they elect to move as jump monstrous creatures and not flying, they can elect to smash, and all FMCs have base s10 if they are smashing and hit against rear armor of every vehicle. Even Fateweaver has s10 when smashing. Even though they halve their attacks, they still almost auto-pen all of the time. So they destroy vehicles. Handily. If you do it right, you can kill up to 5 tanks the first turn that you assaulted. so they are pretty damn awesome.

Breath of chaos is so useful, more than you can imagine, because this ignores armor and cover saves, auto-wounding on a 4+. This is extremely useful against those pesky little blob masses of infantry, especially because you have 4 of those in the army.

For those annoying HQs that boost the opponent's list, or you just don't like them, there is Boon of mutation. There are 4 boons in this list to be exact. Even though they are only 6" range, you can elect to swoop and get near them without the fear of them assaulting you or rapid-firing at your butt off or some stuff like that. but then you can boon of mutation the crap out of any model you choose (up to 4 times). this will make them take a toughness test (no "look out sir" possible), and if they fail, they are removed as a casualty. NOTE: THIS DOES NOT CAUSE "INSTANT DEATH", THEY ARE SIMPLY REMOVED AS A CASUALTY. This means that Boon of Mutation works even against models with eternal warrior. so even if the opponent has a 2+ invuln re-rollable on their HQ, and are impossible to kill in combat, they will just go poof if they fail any toughness tests. Boon of Mutation is so useful, especially if you can pinpoint a HQ or character hoilding the opponents list together.

Hey! Pissed off by those Flying vehicles? Well, do i have the solution for you. It is a brand new product called Vector Strike. Having a hard time hitting them with snap shots all the time? well vector strike allows you to hit flyers automatically with basically your CC attacks. If you move over flyers (or any vehicle or unit for that matter) while swooping in your movement pahse, you can elect to use vector strike as one of your shooting attacks that round. You only go at base strength, but because Unholy Might's upgrade adds the strength bonus "to their profile", DPs now have base strength 6 and the Bloodthirster has base strength 8. Bloodthirster is the model you look towards usually to kill flyers. He gets d3 +1 auto-hits against the side armor of any flyer, and will most of the time pen once or twice. He is the go-to model for killing flyers that are bothering you outright. But you can also kill flyers with DPs, and even Fateweaver (s5). So what was once an annoying as crap flyer that was hard to kill is now a burning piece of rubble on the ground. You can also use vector strike against normal vehicles without even moving on the ground. But one of the most useful uses of vector strike is the ability to fly over a unit and then breath of chaos the crap out of them because you can still shoot one weapon at normal BS and everything else as snap shots. This is good because you will kill a lot of models in the unit without them getting to attack back (combat or shooting).


Anyway yeah...

I playtested this list against a couple of my friends, one who had won a local tourney recently, and one who had come in second in that same tourney. I wiped them both. No kidding. I have only playtested twice so far, but it has been a lot of fun when i playtest, because i am learning everyday. And because this is only the second list i have ever made in 40k. Ever. I will tell you, it is very rewarding to run a list of daemons that actually might be considered competitive.

Let me know what you think of the list,

Thisisnotpancho

I ran an almost identicle list to this last week. I faced a Necron player with Tau allies.

It was a reasonably close game, but I lost 7 kill points to 9. Flying Monstrous Creatures are way more vunlerable to shooting than you would think, largely because of the grounding tests.

Overall, I like the list, and it doesn't make me feel dirty like Fatecrusher did in 5th.

Well you Kinda just have to know how it plays and what your few weaknesses are. If you see a couple units that have mass shooting attacks, target them with breath or vector strike or straight out cc. You just have to know what to look out for when fighting any army. But it is not a guaranteed win.

As for not carrying a spawn model, in kill point games it is often convenient "not to have a model handy," as you are generating free kill points for your opponent.

As for counters to this army, anything with high volume of fire (it can even me markerlights) will ruin your day. You are taking a grounding test EVERY time a unit hits you. I faced Dark Eldar with this list and none of my FMCs survived the turn they landed. Shot, shot, shot until they hit the ground. Then the poisoned attacks started and it was all she wrote. It did not help that Fateweaver failed his first grounding test, hit the ground, failed both invul saves for hitting the ground and then failed his leadership and ran away.

As for this list, I agree in stripping down the Iron Hides off your DPs. That is 120 points to spend elsewhere. I would also contemplate replacing Fateweaver for a straight up Lord of Change. With the swooping mode, you're going to have a difficult time staying within that 6" bubble. Additionally, if you do vector strike, that will also pull you out of said bubble. Lastly, the LoC is stronger and tougher than Fateweaver.

With the new screamer and flamer rules, I am tempted to field them again. With them acting like jetbikes and jump infantry respectively, they should fit in with this unit fairly well.

Lastly, and I have not had a chance to try this out, I would be sorely tempted to field a skyshield landing pad (converted to a more suitable daemonic look). This would allow your flyers to all land well within a 6" bubble of Fateweaver. Once on the board, your plaguebearers can camp inside it getting a 4+ invul once the walls are furled. If its an objective mission put one objective just outside each side of the skyshield. During the last turns, your PBs just climb down go sit on the OBJ.

Hah funny you should mention it, i played dark eldar and tau when i play tested twice. They were the ones that had won and come in second in the local tourney. I believe that markerlights do not grant any bonus when firing snap shots and skyfire. But i think keeping the iron hide is a good idea because most of the mass of shots that takes down the fmcs will not be ap3 or better. This gives the DPs a much better chance of survival against a lot of shots. With a 3+ 3+, it is about an 11% chance that they will take a wound, but with a 4+ 4+, it is about a 25% chance that they will take a wound. And Fateweaver definitely is worth his weight in gold. He basically keeps all FMCs alive during the first turn they drop. And you can but don't have to stick them together the second and third turn ect. A LoC would be good, but fateweaver just boosts the army to the point of beastliness. It wouldn't help the survivability of the army to throw fateweaver. Even for another bloodthirster.

One trick i learned to keeping Fateweaver or any FMC alive till the next turn is to land him on impassible terrain (you can also run him there too). He treats impassible as dangerous and even if he is grounded, he can't be assaulted by a blobmass of troops. I do not believe that it is stated anywhere in FAQs or something but that is how we played it. Because he is a FMC he can be in "dangerous terrain" (impassible) and the other normal troops will not be able to assault into impassible.

Yes, but here is what a smart player will do:

Shoot at your DP with the low strength fires (i.e. bolters, lasguns, markerlights, sluggas, whatever). Every time a unit rolls one 6, you are taking a grounding test. It only takes 3 units to ground you on average. Now, there are two interpretations going around the internets:

OPTION A - grounded means still swooping. So, while you fail your first grounding test, you are still hard to hit. But this means you can also take another grounding test. You fail, and its another strength 9 hit, no armor saves allowed.

OPTION B - grounded means grounded. Once you fail your grounded test, you are on the ground and hit as normal. The normal means to kill DPs is simply volume of fire. Dark Eldar excel at this. They have TONS of poisoned shots. Go ahead and take your 3+, even if its rerollable. They will eventually get through.

Now, I do like the flying over impassable terrain idea. This one had not occurred to me before.

And lastly, I mention markerlights in that if a markerlight hits you, you are taking a grounding test.

I have found a bit of strategy against those masses of fire. When you drop,make sure that you are out of their fire range of most of the shots. After the first turn, the you can swoop up to 24" and use breath on a number of the unit. Or one of the more ballsier options you have is to drop within breath of chaos range and flame the crape out of a good number of the army. However that is very risky, so I would probably stay back from them, because even if you get one or two creatures shot down, they will not be able to assault you that far away. You just have to decide how to play it by the army that you are facing