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Hey guys today i ran onto a strange problem with my battle cannon. I wanted to shoot a unit but the battle cannon shot scattered off this unit, moving around a corner thereby landing square on a unit which i couldn't ordinarily see. My opponent then told me that because i couldn't see this unit with my LRBT this unit could not be hurt by this scattered shot.

Is this right?

You don't have to have line of site if your shot scatters. says so in the BRB on page 33, in other words your opponent was wrong and you hit his unit. Unless of course your shot scattered onto a unit who was on a different level from your original target. For example if you shot at a unit on the top floor of a building and it scatters onto a unit on the bottom floor it wouldn't hit because of the different levels between the two units.

Indirect fire, and blasts that scatter use the same rules.
Both allow models that are out of sight to be wounded.
This must mean you can allocate to them, or it would be impossible for indirect fire to kill anything.

So anybody under the template takes a hit, apply wounds and saves to the closest model.


It's important to note that only blasts that scatter can hit models out of sight. If you roll a hit, you're limiting to hitting models that you have line of sight to.

-Matt
-Matt

Well.... sort of.

Here is the problem, the rules say that if the blast scatters you can hit and wound models out of LoS. And then allocate 'as normal'

the problem arises because allocating as normal means you can't allocate to any models out of LoS.

So, by technicality.... the rules let you hit and wound, but not allocate. Unless... you accept that by allowing you to wound, the rules are also allowing you to allocate those wounds.

To me, it is a ludicrous argument that the book would tell you to hit and wound, but then make that meaningliess.

coredump wrote:Well.... sort of.

Here is the problem, the rules say that if the blast scatters you can hit and wound models out of LoS. And then allocate 'as normal'

the problem arises because allocating as normal means you can't allocate to any models out of LoS.

So, by technicality.... the rules let you hit and wound, but not allocate. Unless... you accept that by allowing you to wound, the rules are also allowing you to allocate those wounds.

To me, it is a ludicrous argument that the book would tell you to hit and wound, but then make that meaningliess.

I take it as meaning you can wound out of LOS and then you simply carry through with the wound allocation as if you had LOS with the unit.

Except the book doesn't say that. Clearly a mistake, but expect some types of opponents to jump on it. If you have a lot of blast weapons, this might be a good thing to cover with your opponent beforehand. More likely to get a logical outcome that way.

Making them kill the targets in LOS/Closer when you've hit the target not in LOS will always throw me for a loop. Should be fairly clear the shot bounces or deflects and kills some other dudes, not the ones simply 'closest" to the gun.

coredump wrote:Well.... sort of.
Here is the problem, the rules say that if the blast scatters you can hit and wound models out of LoS. And then allocate 'as normal'
the problem arises because allocating as normal means you can't allocate to any models out of LoS.
So, by technicality.... the rules let you hit and wound, but not allocate. Unless... you accept that by allowing you to wound, the rules are also allowing you to allocate those wounds.
To me, it is a ludicrous argument that the book would tell you to hit and wound, but then make that meaningliess.

The rules for indirect fire follow the same wording for blasts that scatter. Both allow you to hit and wound models you cannot see, but neither specifies that you can allocate wounds to models out of line of sight.
So, you either are able to allocate wounds to models out of line of sight, or Barrage weapons are useless.
This isn't pulling examples from a 5th edition codex that has out of date terminology, it's all in the 6th basic rule book.




-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:The rules for indirect fire follow the same wording for blasts that scatter. Both allow you to hit and wound models you cannot see, but neither specifies that you can allocate wounds to models out of line of sight.
So, you either are able to allocate wounds to models out of line of sight, or Barrage weapons are useless.
This isn't pulling examples from a 5th edition codex that has out of date terminology, it's all in the 6th basic rule book.

Actually, the Barrage rules specifically state you measure LoS from the center of the blast, so if it scatters into a unit out of sight from the firing unit it can still allocate wounds to that unit. As was pointed out, scattering blasts markers otoh, specificallyt state that you allocate wounds as normal, which technically means you cannot allocate the wounds to any model out of sight from the firing unit.

So by the barrage rules firing indirectly If i roll to hit I can effectively snipe troops in units as lOng as they fail look out sir

Scattering blasts out of LOS does 2 things;

1) Grants permission for the models out of Range/LOS to be both hit and Wounded.

2) Tells you to allocate wounds as normal.

Most are saying that since #2 contains rules that say you cannot allocate Wounds to Models out of Range/LOS; that that trumps #1.

This does not make sense. #1 grants a Specific Exception to #2; what #2 then tells you is that you go from nearest to farthest, applying wounds until the model is removed or you run out of wounds to apply.

KK, please note, that while I am arguing that #2 trumps #1, I do not play that way. As far as I am concerned, anything that can hit a unit completely out of sight can Wound said unit.

Happyjew wrote:KK, please note, that while I am arguing that #2 trumps #1, I do not play that way. As far as I am concerned, anything that can hit a unit completely out of sight can Wound said unit.

The ball is in your court, kind sir.

I have posited my assertion; what is your rebuttal?

That the rule is literally a waste of ink otherwise?

Kommissar Kel wrote:Scattering blasts out of LOS does 2 things;

1) Grants permission for the models out of Range/LOS to be both hit and Wounded.

2) Tells you to allocate wounds as normal.

Most are saying that since #2 contains rules that say you cannot allocate Wounds to Models out of Range/LOS; that that trumps #1.

This does not make sense. #1 grants a Specific Exception to #2; what #2 then tells you is that you go from nearest to farthest, applying wounds until the model is removed or you run out of wounds to apply.

I believe 2 refers to taking closest model from the tank first.

I'm inclined to agree with KK on it. That attacks that scatter permit wounds to models out of LOS trumps the "can't allocate wounds to models out of LOS" bit in Wound Allocation. Then you allocate wounds to the unit you did hit as if you did have LOS to it.

I was just in a discussion on similar topic and here's my take on it.

First place your blast template on a model in range and LOS

Wherever the blast template might be (Scattering or not) count the models underneath and roll to wound on avg toughness. The blast may scatter out of range and out of LOS of the weapon firing.

Than with the wound pool created apply those wounds to models in LOS (of said unit) starting with those closest to the firing unit. No wounds can be applied to units out of LOS.

That means yes you can cause wounds based off of models out of LOS but in the end said wounds need to be placed on models in LOS.

It helps if you don't think of the blast template as the literal location of the blast. Instead think of it as a abstracted means of calculating number of hits.

In the instance of a blast scattering onto enemies behind complete LOS blocking cover. it's just a shot that would have been awesome except for some meddling building (or what not) that got in the way

Except that indirect fire weapons are shooting over the cover. That's the idea behind howitzers, mortars, and similar weapons that arc their payload over obstructions and onto the heads of people behind said obstructions.

I thought we were talking about a Lemun Russ Battle cannon. Which is a direct fire weapon. Barrages are a different story. That's a whole other can of worms, especially when dealing with multiple blasts.

We are, which has extended into a discussion of Scatter rules, which applies equally to both weapons. Now, if you want to play with a different set of rules for every type of weapon in the game, be my guest, but I prefer that weapons that all have scatter chances all operate under the same rules.

You could also say that the Battlecannon round does not hit the target unit, scatters to the unit behind cover, and showers them with razor-sharp shrapnel and flying masonry/wood/metal/whatever-the-feth from the building the round struck, and allocates wounds to that unit, at the listed damage.

In real life, yes. You could no doubt wound enemies outside LOS with explosive direct fire weapondry. As we have all probably determined 40k isn't realistic (house rule as you like).

What I'm going on is the literal RAW in the book (for better or worse)

I'm not sure if what your saying is that you want to make barrage and blast work the same as each for simplicity sake. If so make some house rules. In the end, my explanation is how it's laid out in the book.

In regards to shrapnel, flying masonry don't look at it as your blast literally happened at that location (like a barrage). It happened somewhere else, probably into the side of the building blocking line of site. Realistic? probably not, but you just take it for what it is and imagine the scenario where your tank shell would have gone right into the middle of that team of bad guys but instead got blocked by the house and only killed some guy you could see standing next to the building.

The rules for barrage state that the wounds are allocated as if the shot was from the centre of the blast marker. Therefore barrage weapons can kill models out of LOS. Blast weapons on the other hand cannot as they are allocated like a normal shooting attack and cannot allocate out of LOS.
Just my 2 cents