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I keep reading that Deathmarks with a veiltek can mark a unit each time they use the deep strike rules I.E the veil
I am sure this has already been covered (but i cant find it )and reading the Death marks rule and the deepstrike rule it seems legal so the question, is it?

Oh and legal is legal while there may be a moral argument or cheese argument against it all i am interested in is the legality

Thanks

Deep striking using VoD is movement, not deploying. if you arrive from reserves then you are deploying.

A more valid question is about deathmarks in a nightscythe that constantly goes in and out of the battlefield. Do they get to place another counter this way?

Oh nicely picked up copper.talos, looking into it the Deathmark ability is triggered when they are deployed, if they come on in a nightscythe that has left the battlefield they use the ongoing reserve rule so they follow the normal rules for reserves which is classed as deploying except they always re-enter play (deploy) on your next turn instead of rolling.

Based on this they could certainly nominate a different target unit and place another counter for that unit, pretty neat if your original target unit had already been wiped out.

Got to say i don't think its as clear as that .

The veil when used uses the Deep strike rules deep striking is clearly defined as Deployment hence the question .

Again i ask is RAW clear here or is it another they take the hit no they don't argument (Nightscythe )


P.S Nightscythe argument is mute just using it as an example no need to start it agian

Even if you mark the whole enemy army this strategy is hardly tactically viable. You have to deepstrike in effective staff range to have any hope of offensive output with the unit. Thats about 5"-6" without mishap or scattering out of range. Deathmark fire alone isnt scary.

You also have to keep in mind yor deathmark unit will likely be out in the open and close to the enemy during every enemy shooting phase, meaning your unit is going to be blown to kingdom come. It's a suicide unit and very likely going to only take out one unit in it's lifetime. Not to mention, using the op reading of the rules, interceptor weapons will get to shoot at you every time you deep strike.

I think the royal circus is scarier. 1 veil cryptek with a buch of staves of light and some res orbs and some 2+ save tanks. 12" range assault 3 ap 3 on 9 or 10 bodies. Expensive, though it's a group of all characters so you can use look out sir shenanigans.

copper.talos wrote:Deep striking using VoD is movement, not deploying. if you arrive from reserves then you are deploying.

A more valid question is about deathmarks in a nightscythe that constantly goes in and out of the battlefield. Do they get to place another counter this way?

Citation needed. You do it instead of moving on your turn, but nowhere does it say anything like "Instead of normal Deep Strike rules, this counts as simple movement".

It's definitely deploying, and you do get to trigger HfH on each move. Luckily it's offset by being a pretty risky manuever... you need to deep strike into practically assault range and hope you don't scatter the wrong way. If you're off your wound output is drastically offset, and you'l' just be assaulted to death otherwise.

Looking at the Deep Strike rules (p36) it doesn't refer to Deep Strike as deploying.

The only time 'Deploy' is even mentioned is for Misplaced on the Mishap table.

Hunters from Hyperspace: When a Deathmark unit deploys, ...

So fundamentally this is a question of what counts as "deploys". Clearly moving in from reserves incorporates deploys. Main rulebook p.124 ¶12 (When a Reserves unit arrives, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it,). So copper.talos' nightscythe example would indeed trigger a new Hunters from Hyperspace counter.

As for your question about VoD & HfH interaction, there are already numerous threads on the very subject. Opinions are divided and you can find plenty of justification for both sides of the argument.

You can basically sum up those threads with:
RaW... it's legit. Basically, since the Deep Strike rules incorporate the deploying/deployed language, the unit 'deploys'. For instance 'Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.' p. 36 Main Ruleblook

RaI... Its an abuse of the initial intention.

In my opinion, the strongest argument FOR this working is that the Deep Strike rules no longer function correctly if you do not incorporate a deployment. Things like 'If it is not deployment then you can never mishap' creep up. So the belief that VoD is not deploying potentially causes more problems than it solves.

Ultimately, let your tournament organizer decide or hope that it gets addressed in the FAQ.

I would say that "pg 121" of the brb answers the question to "what counts as deploy"...

Kevin949 wrote:I would say that "pg 121" of the brb answers the question to "what counts as deploy"...

P.121 covers the basic rules for deploying. P. 36 covers the rules for deploying via Deep Strike. Since Veil of Darkness triggers Deep Strike we must look to P. 36 for insight.

If you do not treat Deep Strike as a 'deploy' then you would have to throw out bullet point 3 on page 36, ie., 'Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain, and the entire section on Deep Strike Mishaps (since only units that cannot be 'deployed', because at least one model would land partially or fully off the table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friendly model, or on top of or within 1" of an enemy model, trigger a Deep Strike Mishap.

Would you really rather undermine the entire Deep Strike rules, and have Veil of Darkness Deep Strikes unable to trigger Mishaps than to allow an extra Hunters from Hyperspace counter on the board? Really?

No, pg 36 covers the case of arriving from reserves using deep strike. If you are not arriving from reserves you are not deploying.

copper.talos wrote:No, pg 36 covers the case of arriving from reserves using deep strike. If you are not arriving from reserves you are not deploying.

P. 36 covers more than just 'arriving from reserves using deep strike' as you say. Presumably, the rules on P. 36 apply to all instances of Deep Strike. The fact remains that the Deep Strike rules explicitly use the deploying/deployed language. Nowhere does it say 'If you are not arriving from reserves you are not deploying'. That bit you are just adding yourself.

RAW its very clear P.36 Arriving by Deep Strike - Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows.
Or are you saying we do not use these rules for resolving a Veil of Darkness Deep Strike? In which case, what rules do you propose we use instead?

Page 36 lays down the guidelines to follow for deep strike, but it does imply that it's referencing units starting in deep strike reserve. A cryptek (or obyron) in a squad of deathmarks simply replaces their movement with a deep strike move. They are not deploying (as laid out on pg 121) and they're not in reserves (as laid out on pg 36). Since neither of these qualifiers are met, I don't see how you could say they're "deploying", despite the rampant use of the word (and if you have a PDF version of the rulebook that is searchable, you can see for yourself just how often "deploy" is used).

Just my opinion, but if they're not following the deployment step and they're not in deep strike reserves (as pg 36 is laying guidelines for deploying from deep strike reserves and NOT just deep striking) then I wouldn't count them as "Deploying" for a new counter each time.

Now if they went into ongoing reserve, that would be a different story, but as it stands they're just making a move utilizing the deep strike rule for placement and mishap.

Kevin949 wrote:Page 36 lays down the guidelines to follow for deep strike, but it does imply that it's referencing units starting in deep strike reserve. A cryptek (or obyron) in a squad of deathmarks simply replaces their movement with a deep strike move. They are not deploying (as laid out on pg 121) and they're not in reserves (as laid out on pg 36). Since neither of these qualifiers are met, I don't see how you could say they're "deploying", despite the rampant use of the word (and if you have a PDF version of the rulebook that is searchable, you can see for yourself just how often "deploy" is used).

1st, rules are not guidelines, they are rules. P.36 provides the steps to follow when resolving a Deep Strike. Those steps include, by necessity, the "then deploy them as follows:" step. If you skip, leave out, or otherwise ignore this step, the Deep Strike rules on p. 36 unravel.

Deploy = deploy, and is the keyword we are looking for to trigger Hunters from Hyperspace. That is why this is a RAW approach.

Many feel as you do, that RAI this 'feels' wrong. But until it gets an FAQ, the RAW support Veil of Darkness triggering Hunters from Hyperspace.

I strongly suggest you submit this to get addressed in the FAQ by sending the question to gamefaqs@gwplc.com

nemsin wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:Page 36 lays down the guidelines to follow for deep strike, but it does imply that it's referencing units starting in deep strike reserve. A cryptek (or obyron) in a squad of deathmarks simply replaces their movement with a deep strike move. They are not deploying (as laid out on pg 121) and they're not in reserves (as laid out on pg 36). Since neither of these qualifiers are met, I don't see how you could say they're "deploying", despite the rampant use of the word (and if you have a PDF version of the rulebook that is searchable, you can see for yourself just how often "deploy" is used).

1st, rules are not guidelines, they are rules. P.36 provides the steps to follow when resolving a Deep Strike. Those steps include, by necessity, the "then deploy them as follows:" step. If you skip, leave out, or otherwise ignore this step, the Deep Strike rules on p. 36 unravel.

Deploy = deploy, and is the keyword we are looking for to trigger Hunters from Hyperspace. That is why this is a RAW approach.

Many feel as you do, that RAI this 'feels' wrong. But until it gets an FAQ, the RAW support Veil of Darkness triggering Hunters from Hyperspace.

I strongly suggest you submit this to get addressed in the FAQ by sending the question to gamefaqs@gwplc.com

So, now you're picking and choosing which part of the rule to follow and when? As the part you mentioned, you conveniently left out the "roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for reserves..."

So, we don't do that with crypteks. Because that step of deep strike deployment only happens when they arrive from reserves.

Again, I'll reiterate, they are not "deploying" via deep strike, they are using deep strike rules to MOVE around the board.

Again, I'll reiterate, they are not "deploying" via deep strike, they are using deep strike rules to MOVE around the board.

Nowhere does Veil of Darkness say 'use the deepstrike rules to MOVE around the board'.

What is says is "The Cyrptek and his unit are removed from the tabletop and immediately Deep Strike back onto the battlefield".

The Deep Strike Rules say 'deploy as follows:', 'models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain', and 'If a unit cannot be deployed, because at least one model would land partially or fully off the table, in impassible terrain, on top of a friendly model, or on top of or within 1" of an enemy model, something has gone wrong.'

My position is that RAW the Deep Strike rules found on p.36 explicitly include the use of deploy/deploying/deployed. That the Deep Strike rules, by necessity, include a 'deploy" (how else do you get the models back onto the board?)

You try to add words like MOVE, or imply that only initial setup or moving in from reserves counts as a 'deploy', but your position is not supported in the rules.

nemsin wrote:

Again, I'll reiterate, they are not "deploying" via deep strike, they are using deep strike rules to MOVE around the board.

Nowhere does Veil of Darkness say 'use the deepstrike rules to MOVE around the board'.

What is says is "The Cyrptek and his unit are removed from the tabletop and immediately Deep Strike back onto the battlefield".

The Deep Strike Rules say 'deploy as follows:', 'models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain', and 'If a unit cannot be deployed, because at least one model would land partially or fully off the table, in impassible terrain, on top of a friendly model, or on top of or within 1" of an enemy model, something has gone wrong.'

My position is that RAW the Deep Strike rules found on p.36 explicitly include the use of deploy/deploying/deployed. That the Deep Strike rules, by necessity, include a 'deploy" (how else do you get the models back onto the board?)

You try to add words like MOVE, or imply that only initial setup or moving in from reserves counts as a 'deploy', but your position is not supported in the rules.

I'm sorry, I figured the "instead of moving normally" portion would have implied that. Which again, you left out of your text pull from the codex.

And, again, yes they deep strike, no they are not deep striking from reserves. P.36 describes deep striking from reserves and also lays out the foundation of how to resolve deep strike movement. All of the "deployment" you reference is for unit arriving from reserves. Also, the deep strike rules state that you resolve deep strike at the start of the player turn (I believe it says you roll for it before the movement phase). The cryptek does not have this restriction, nor are you forced to move the cryptek and his unit first, as you would normally have to do with deep strike. This is because it's done in lieu of normal movement but it is still his movement, which is just using deep strike as the method to move around the board. Everything regarding "deployment" in the deep strike rules has to do with reserves. The cryptek and obyron are exceptions to the deep strike RAW because they don't actually follow most of the deep strike rules, just the placement and mishap portion. Now, if they were worded similar to that one nid creature that, I believe, does actually go back into reserves (Is it the mawloc that can burrow back underground?) then yes, I'd agree with you. As it stands now though, no.

Kevin949 wrote: Everything regarding "deployment" in the deep strike rules has to do with reserves.

Kevin, there is nothing indicating that 'Everything regarding "deployment" in the deep strike rules has to do with reserves'. When you represent such blanket statements without a basis in the rules you only serve to confuse the issue. Reference to deploying can be found in every major section of the Deep Strike rules, namely, "Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain" and again in the section describing Deep Strike Mishaps.

Or are you trying to say that those sections also only apply to deep striking out of reserves?

If you were correct that the Veil of Darkness Deep Strike is not a 'deploy', then said unit would not be subject to the bullet point *models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain; nor could they trigger a Deep Strike Mishap (since Deep Strike Mishaps only occur when a deep striking unit cannot be deployed, because...).

I know its easy to get caught up in arguing for whatever position you feel is correct. But please stop for a minute and consider the problems your version would potentially create.

RAW fully supports another counter going out.

RAI says this is borkd and not the intended method for the HfHS rule. If its FAQed, it will say no to this foresight.
Personally, I would play it without the new mark going out. We all know this is not intended and to think it is is foolhardy/TFG mentality.

I agree with you xzerios. But the OP was asking for the 'is it legal' answer. In a friendly game, players can obviously play however they like. But in a tournament situation, if push comes to shove, I believe it is legal.

Itl come down the TO to be honest. If they are playing it isnt gona fly. If they arent, I could see it going both ways. Again, the RAW fully supports a new mark going out as the rules for Veil of Darkness calls for a DS to occur; Since every DS is a deployment, the HfHS would trigger and put out a new mark.

No TO in his right mind would accept this .Don't forget in 5th edition you "deploy" each time you disembark a transport. Did you see even 1 player adding counters each time they disembarked?

Just because the word "deploy" is mentioned in arriving from reserves using deep strike, it doesn't make each deep strike deployment. The only legal way to add more counters is using the Nightscythe.

5th edition has nothing to with this conversion. Neither does 4th, 3rd, or 2nd editions for that matter. But for the sake of argument I will point out that 6th edition rules removed the word 'deploy' from the Transport Disembarking rules. Yet, they did not remove instances of 'deploy' from the Deep Strike rules. So if anything, your point strengthens it working RAW.

Also, please stop saying things like "The only legal way to add more counters is using the Nightscythe" in a thread where the OP is asking a RAW question. You are representing your personal feelings as if it was the definitive answer and it is not. For example, a C'tan with Grand Illusion could also add more counters.

The Deep Strike rules include the deploy/deploying/deployed language. Was it the intention of the designer to have this trigger Hunters from Hyperspace? That we do not know. I have shown repeated problems with trying to treat sections of the Deep Strike rules as only applying to instances to Deep Striking from reserves. No one has proposed an answer to those problems.

So let me ask anyone who thinks its not a deploy a few questions.
1) If Deep Striking is not a 'deploy', what is it?
2) How do my models get back onto the table?
3) If its not a deploy, how would a mishap ever happen? (since clearly mishaps are the result of being unable to deploy p.36)
4) If you think the use of deploy only apply to Deep Striking out of Reserves, how do you reconcile the word being used in bullet point 3 'Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.' Does this only apply when coming in from reserves?

Please try to use the RULES to support your answers.

nemsin wrote:

Kevin949 wrote: Everything regarding "deployment" in the deep strike rules has to do with reserves.

Kevin, there is nothing indicating that 'Everything regarding "deployment" in the deep strike rules has to do with reserves'. When you represent such blanket statements without a basis in the rules you only serve to confuse the issue. Reference to deploying can be found in every major section of the Deep Strike rules, namely, "Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain" and again in the section describing Deep Strike Mishaps.

Or are you trying to say that those sections also only apply to deep striking out of reserves?

If you were correct that the Veil of Darkness Deep Strike is not a 'deploy', then said unit would not be subject to the bullet point *models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain; nor could they trigger a Deep Strike Mishap (since Deep Strike Mishaps only occur when a deep striking unit cannot be deployed, because...).

I know its easy to get caught up in arguing for whatever position you feel is correct. But please stop for a minute and consider the problems your version would potentially create.

I've explained several times now, I won't repeat myself again. Good luck getting anyone to agree to this. And I do stop and consider, which is why I referenced numerous sections above and beyond "pg 36" but it seems to get ignored, even though it's part of the rules and clearly shows you what "deployment" or "Deploying" is.

Look, if GW faq's it in favor of them getting a counter every time, I'll be ecstatic and they'll get a lot more use from me. As it stands now, they shouldn't get any more than 1 per squad. I've made my position and I've backed it up.

By the way, by your logic then they would get a counter when they run (because it says "redeploy" in the rule).

Also, explain to me the use of "deploy[ed] and Deployment" in the scout and infilitrator rule. Or the use of the word in the warlord traits section. Or the use of it in the "A note on secrecy" section.

I'll give you a hint on these...all of them are referencing something that happens "before the game starts". Or more accurately, before the movement phase of player 1 turn 1.

It's all about context and less about the word(s) being the same.

Kevin plenty of people feel as I do, that RAW its legal. You have provided no counter argument supported by the rules to show that it is not. Nor have you addressed the numerous issues I have pointed out that not treating it as a deploy would create. Next.

nemsin wrote:Kevin plenty of people feel as I do, that RAW its legal. You have provided no counter argument supported by the rules to show that it is not. Nor have you addressed the numerous issues I have pointed out that not treating it as a deploy would create. Next.

Very well. But it won't matter because you'll just stick your fingers in your ears and LALALALALA to whatever I say. And yes, on here people agree with what they think the rules are supposed to be. It doesn't mean they're not wrong and it doesn't mean I'm not wrong, but I was saying you'll be hard pressed to find (non-friendly) gamers that would allow this. If it's your buddies, sure they would. Some random guy at a store or in a tournament? Probably not.

Continuing on...

nemsin wrote:5th edition has nothing to with this conversion. Neither does 4th, 3rd, or 2nd editions for that matter. But for the sake of argument I will point out that 6th edition rules removed the word 'deploy' from the Transport Disembarking rules. Yet, they did not remove instances of 'deploy' from the Deep Strike rules. So if anything, your point strengthens it working RAW.

Also, please stop saying things like "The only legal way to add more counters is using the Nightscythe" in a thread where the OP is asking a RAW question. You are representing your personal feelings as if it was the definitive answer and it is not. For example, a C'tan with Grand Illusion could also add more counters.

The Deep Strike rules include the deploy/deploying/deployed language. Was it the intention of the designer to have this trigger Hunters from Hyperspace? That we do not know. I have shown repeated problems with trying to treat sections of the Deep Strike rules as only applying to instances to Deep Striking from reserves. No one has proposed an answer to those problems.

So let me ask anyone who thinks its not a deploy a few questions.
1) If Deep Striking is not a 'deploy', what is it?
Deep striking is movement, nothing more and nothing less. That's why it's done in the movement phase. Deployment is done FROM RESERVES.
2) How do my models get back onto the table?
what are you asking here? They get back on the table because that is what the rules say they do. For the necron codex, "The cryptek and his unit are removed from the tabletop and immediately deep strike back onto the battlefield." The use of "immediately" indicates they do not go into reserves to be deployed again, otherwise they would have to wait until the following turn.
3) If its not a deploy, how would a mishap ever happen? (since clearly mishaps are the result of being unable to deploy p.36)
*Sigh* It's a deploy if it's from reserves. If you look at ANYTHING ELSE IN THE BOOK that concerns itself with deploying and deployment you will notice that everything mentions deploy and deployment as a pre-game starting statement. I.E. A unit is deployed via deep strike reserve, which can only happen once because you can not go back into deep strike reserve to deploy again. Deployment....happens....once. Otherwise, I could veil my flayed ones and then I'd have to wait until the end of my turn to place them on the board but I could put them anywhere with 12" out of LOS or 18" within LOS and they wouldn't scatter...or maybe they would, I don't know, you're the expert and deploying...how does deep strike and infiltrate work together when deploying? Oh, not to mention the infiltrate rule has the wording "deploy/move onto the table", so deploying can happen more than once, why would they feel the need to clarify that there?
4) If you think the use of deploy only apply to Deep Striking out of Reserves, how do you reconcile the word being used in bullet point 3 'Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.' Does this only apply when coming in from reserves?
Again, it's context. The deep strike rule is talking about deploying via deep strike reserves...just because it uses the word deploy in the bullet point doesn't mean it holds up for models already on the board and not re-entering reserves. Yes, they would still follow the basics of the rules of deep striking (difficult as dangerous, mishap table, things of that sort) because the rule tells us this is what you follow when you deep strike. The fact that the ENTIRE rule is written as if models were coming from reserves (because that is where 99% of deep strikers come from) doesn't change that crypteks still follow the restrictions and dangers of it, but you're ignoring the LARGE PORTIONS of qualifiers required to be "deploying". One of them namely being you must be in reserve at the start of the game to deploy. Even ongoing reserves says they "re-enter play" and not "deploy".

Please try to use the RULES to support your answers.

Oh, and with that, I'm done. See you in another thread I'm sure.

OK I called games workshop and talked with customer service about this very issue. I was told that the way they are playing it, is that Deathmarks ONLY place their counter when they physically enter the board for the 1st time. That means physically placing the Deathmarks onto the board, not just having their dedicated transport arrive (due to the way the Invasion Beamers works in the FAQ).

This means no Deep Striking tricks, no flying on and off the board, nada. 1 counter per squad, period. The customer service person did say that they are not the designers and that I should also forward the question to the FAQ email, which I had already done, and I hope you all do to.

I am happy to play it the way the customer service person suggested, though I still feel that the Deep Strike rules include a deployment. But that issue no longer seems relevant to the Hunter from Hyperspace interaction.

nemsin, there is a very good reason why we don't use the (insert color here) shirts that man the phone lines. You can ask the same question three times and get four different answers.

Happyjew is correct. Customer Service reps are not a reliable source for rules clarifications. Until a FAQ comes out (and we know its gona say no to more marks) you use RAW. Again, Ill be giving my opponent the clarification that thats not how Ill be playing my squad of Death and Despair (cause cmon, its already an impressive anti-deathstar deathstar unit).