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Here is my (very) experimental bike list. I've been running mech MEQ for a silly long time and have been looking for a bit of a change of pace. With some of the changes for Bikes (true t5, Jink, HoW, etc) they look like a very strong list so I'm branching out.

++HQ++
Khan 205

Master of the Forge 155
Bike
Conversion Beamer


++Elite++

++Troops++

Bike Squad 195
+1 members
2x plasma gun
MM Attack Bike

Bike Squad 195
+1 members
2x plasma gun
MM Attack Bike

Bike Squad 195
+1 members
2x plasma gun
MM Attack Bike


++Fast Attack++

Stormtalon 155
Skyhammer

Landspeeder Squadron 140
1x MM/MM
1x MM

++Heavy Support++
Vindicator 120
Dozer Blade

Vindicator 120
Dozer Blade

Thunderfire Cannon 100


++Allies++
CCS 185
Astropath
Officer of the Fleet
2x Melta
Chimera

PCS 40
Autocannon

IS 60
Autocannon

IS 60
Autocannon

Heavy Weapons Squad 75
3x Autocannon

3 HQ, 4 Troops, 2 FA, 3 HS
C:SM 24 Models, 5 Vehicles, 4 Scoring
IG 39 Models, 1 Vehicles, 4 Scoring


I only have one game with this exact list, and several with bikes in general. So far they've performed very well. Between the two Techmarines and limited amount of models for my gunline, most of them sit in a solid cover save. Outflanking and the large number of templates (2 pie plates, 5 blast, all S6 or better) really restricts opponent's deployment zones. Generally speaking one or more of the threats will be lining up fantastic shots. Between Outflanking and my speed I can threaten lists that have a small footprint and heavy reserves quite well. Bonus to my reserves and penalty to theirs makes these matches even more lopsided in my favor, especially when my Outflanking is being rerolled if I choose. This really allows me to place my bikes wherever I want them to be, and I can threaten nearly everywhere with MMs. The high number of scoring units and models means I can control/contest objectives well and bikes excel at The Relic. Kill the Alien is a bit rough, however.

I go back and forth about Khan's Outflanking vs the Captain's Combat Tactics a lot. So far, it seems much less frequent that I'd want Combat Tactics anymore. Yes, it did get a buff via the buff to ATSKNF, but it comes up less often than it has in the past. Further, it was always an abillity more useful against assault armies/units, both of which are less strong against bikes in this edition in particular anyways. Outflanking got both buffs and nerfs, but only the buffs effect me - being able to place my bike squads with melta range of most objectives, and hammer and anvil deployment.

The list came about when I really wanted to fit a Thunderfire Cannon into it. I was really concerned with the lack of mobility of that unit in a bike list, so I swapped out my mechanized veterans for a Platoon Squad, which drastically increased my long range firepower at the expense of the mobility of about 500 points worth of my units. However, my lack of any units to sit and claim objectives in my deployment zone concerned me, so I'm hoping the Platoon squad solves this. It also adds a lot of autocannons, giving me a large volume of S7 or better shooting (2 pie plates, 1 blast, 29 shots).

Against flier spam, my bikes can push into their deployment and be very difficult to target. -1 to reserves hampers their alpha strikes significantly, and I have a high volume of S7 fire and a lot of twin-linked or rapid fire capable. Again nob biker deathstars, I have 7 S6 or better blasts, 3 of which are AP 1. Harliestars I just avoid fighting with my mobility. If they want to chew up 60 point infantry squads, more power to them. Flying circus concerns me as I haven't played against it yet, and the usually tactic of ground them and assault them isn't a place my army wants to be at. Nids, IG and other lists depends a lot on their unit selection, but I'm interested in hearing about potential problem lists for my army.

Thanks for reading.

I don't see evident problems, apart the Land Speeders (as we already debated in another 3d) that I would like to see replaced by attack bikes.

Anyway, the only change I would like to do would be find the pts (if possibile, of course) for an Aegis defense line. Eventually equipped by a Quad cannon.

Does the Chimera is particulary important? I imagine the CCS+the platoon as completly stationary, you'll certainly find a place between the bolstered terrains and an Aegis line.

I think a single stormtalon is just too easy to shoot down. I would a couple at least to try to make that work.

Then combat tactics is amazing, especially for bikes. Running away is always good.
Whereas bikers are still capable of getting behind the enemy just using their speed, so outflank is less important.

I would get aeroplanes for your guardsmen, else get them an IC to boost them.

I would give khan his deathstar command squad on bikes, it is very powerful and a good use of khan. I know he can no longer charge from an outflank. t5 and FNP is nice combo.

I real dislike the mix of mech and infantry and bikes. It doesn't have enough target saturation.
I would be happy to have a solid mech core, with the bikes doing funny stuff.
Else infantry being at the back behind an ADL with quadgun with the bikers doing the funny stuff.
Or even Bikers and aeroplanes(note that everything can not be put into reserve, in fact you would autolose if you did)

Toban wrote:I don't see evident problems, apart the Land Speeders (as we already debated in another 3d) that I would like to see replaced by attack bikes.

Anyway, the only change I would like to do would be find the pts (if possibile, of course) for an Aegis defense line. Eventually equipped by a Quad cannon.

Does the Chimera is particulary important? I imagine the CCS+the platoon as completly stationary, you'll certainly find a place between the bolstered terrains and an Aegis line.

Yeah, especially with Khan, I think the Land Speeders might be making the swap to Attack Bikes. So far everything I've used the Land Speeders for, the Attack Bikes with Outflank could have been used better.

MFletch wrote:I think a single stormtalon is just too easy to shoot down. I would a couple at least to try to make that work.

Then combat tactics is amazing, especially for bikes. Running away is always good.
Whereas bikers are still capable of getting behind the enemy just using their speed, so outflank is less important.

I would get aeroplanes for your guardsmen, else get them an IC to boost them.

I would give khan his deathstar command squad on bikes, it is very powerful and a good use of khan. I know he can no longer charge from an outflank. t5 and FNP is nice combo.

I real dislike the mix of mech and infantry and bikes. It doesn't have enough target saturation.
I would be happy to have a solid mech core, with the bikes doing funny stuff.
Else infantry being at the back behind an ADL with quadgun with the bikers doing the funny stuff.
Or even Bikers and aeroplanes(note that everything can not be put into reserve, in fact you would autolose if you did)

With regards to the Storm Talon, you're generally right. I think it works, at least it has so far, in this list, for a few reasons. First, the quad-gun, the most common AA threat, also smacks all of my reserves. In that case, the Storm Talon has a lot more than expected saturation. Hydras are next, and well, with outflanking MM they've not been an issue so far, not to mention they're rather rare to begin with. The only other common AA solution I'm aware of is nid psyker spam, and if he's going to load up on OM just to kill my Storm Talon, I'm pretty okay with that. The Storm Talon is basically there as a fighter craft, which I can guarantee my alpha strike just by flying off the board every turn if need be (against more expensive fliers, like the Storm Raven) or just trading for one of their aircraft (again Night Scythes) and at that point it's done it's job.

I keep seeing many people theoryhammer about Combat Tactics, but have you actually used it in game? I've not really seen it make a difference in any of my games so far. I go back and forth on this a lot, but really I've not seen many issues where Combat Tactics is as useful as it was in the past. Assault armies are weaker now, and assault in general is a poorer option than it was in the past. Tarpitting is worse, and overwatch penalizes units that try to tarpit us. Against shooting armies (GK, IG, Necrons, etc) Combat Tactics is near worthless. Most assault units that are still being used will simply wipe my minimum-sized bike squads in a single turn anyways. Sure, they can technically shoot me and I could potentially flee then - but they'd have to cause 2-3 wounds in the shooting phase (out of 6 wounds total) for the ability to even activate, and so far my opponents with these assault units have just opted not to fire in these cases and killed me in assault instead.

In the situations it applies, I see Combat Tactics as an impressive ability that only got buffed in this edition. However, I see those situations becoming less common on all fronts, and the more I play without it the less often I wish I had it. I would love to see a good justifcation for it, as I was originally on the side of Combat Tactics + Captain over Khan, but so far I've not been able to justify it. Outflanking is just something you have to try before you'll believe. I took Khan as a joke for one game, thinking he was overcosted for the ability. Since then Outflanking has been one of the most valuable abilities I've had, point for point. Getting behind your enemy sounds really easy, but if your squad starts the turn on the board, your threat range is exactly measureable. But if you're outflanking, you can literally deliver 12" MM and Plasma rapid fire to 67% of the board, and in 1/3 of your games, it's the entire board (cover allowing). Also, I think the logic of "bikes are already fast, so they don't need outflanking" is a bit flawed, as their speed is exactly what makes outflanking so deadly.

What IC would you recommend?

I'm not really sure about the deathstar bike squad. At the end of the day, it's one of the weakest death stars, as it has no invulnerable save, and loses to most other death stars (and expensive death stars are usually not game winners anyways). Further, they're paying for the option of lots of special weapons and TL bolters that they're not really making use of. Now that they can't assault from outflanking either, I feel they're a lot weaker of a unit. I've tried using them and I'll probably try more in the future, but it's hard to find room in the list for a death star.

I do agree about the mix of bikes + mech + aero + infantry. I'm thinking that the Chimera and Land Speeders go. The Vindicators, however, I'm really torn about. They've paid for themselves in every game I've played, or taken an inordinate amount of firepower, allowing my other elements to go unmolested. They do violate target saturation and can't outflank, unfortunately. I could swap them for 2 more TFC, but I'm worried about losing that much S10 and AP1 firepower out of my list.

ADL was actually on the list, but it was the last thing I cut to get under points.

Have you ever considered a LRR+5 terminators outflanking and (50% of times from the good side) join Khan just before the assault? Even if furious charge has been nerfed is still a good bonus. Just be sure to give LC/LC to the Serg. and TH/SS to the rest. For challenges issues.

Another thing.

If I should consider a valid allied for a bikers list I would advice a Jetseer with warding and doom. This will not only help you vs psionics but will also help soften enemy deathstars before your rapid fire/24" AP2/1.
Besides thay will even help to contest objectives later in the game (48" of max mouvement.. oh my..) and they will keep the same speed of the rest of the army.

Doom doesn't even need LOS.. lol

I thought about the LLR and terminators, but now that you can't assault from Outflanking I don't think that tactic is as worthwhile. I'd rather just have them on the board so they can assault 1-2 turns earlier. Though their odds of coming from the good side are much better with my list - 8/9.

My top two choices for allies seem to be Eldar or Imperial Guard.

Right now, here is what Imperial Guard bring me:
+1 to my reserves, reroll my outflank
-1 to opponent reserves, reroll their outflank
Foot troops to claim objectives on higher floors
Points efficient troops to sit on my objectives and still contribute via autocannons

Eldar would bring me:
Better psyker defense
Doom
Even faster, mobile troops

Is there anything I'm missing here?

My concern with the Eldar allies is then I have no units to actually sit on objectives in my deployment zone at the end of the game. Sure, I can always drive back - but that basically means I'm taking bike squads out of the game. The IG autocannon squads can be on the objectives and still contribute, and are better at holding objectives in/near terrain

Mmmm I don't know if IG is better at holding objectives in/near terrains. Remember the new rule you'll can't shot to what you don't see. However, with 39 models on foot trying to stay in a building you'll certainly offer some body in LOS. This will allow your opponent to concetrate fire and eventualyl force you to some dangerous LD tests. Not to mention flamers specialists that could actually come close to you and then burn down half of your blob in a hit.

In many many many situations, depending of course by the positioning of the objetives, you'll be certainyl able to place 5 cloacked scouts. Claiming and out of TLOS.

Of course they wouldn't contribute a lot to the game but will free your bikes to late-back-rushes. Eldars however can move 48" for last second claim/contest.

If you'll choose Eldars consider Pathfinders, for 120 points you'll may take an interesting sniping unit with very good LOW AP effectiveness.

The real bonuses IG gives you are the -1/rerolling on enemy reserve/outflank rolls. The positive bonuses aren't really needed imho.

I don't know honestly, really is a matter of preferences.
For competitive situations I will take Eldars, for less pro situations I will certainly give a try to the IG.

Last thing, eventually taking IG it would really be a shame not having a Vendetta with them. This will not only help the Stormtalon but it will also a little target priority considerations to your opponent.

Drop the speeders because there too easy to kill with glances.

Drop khan as he is overpriced. Take a generic SM captain on a bike (then you can take scoring bikes) give him artificer armor and hes only like 165 points with a power weapon and a better save! Infact you could give him a storm shield and still cost less that Khan!

I recommend you add an aegis defense line. It gives your guard and heavy weapons teams a free 4+ save and 2 more autocannons.

Going to have to go with the trending advice. Attack Bikes over Land Speeders (especially with Outflank) An ADL wouldn't be a bad investment for the IG (I typically nay say it for Space Marines) and I have no idea what that Chimera for the CCS is supposed to be doing.

Ricter wrote:
I keep seeing many people theoryhammer about Combat Tactics, but have you actually used it in game? I've not really seen it make a difference in any of my games so far. I go back and forth on this a lot, but really I've not seen many issues where Combat Tactics is as useful as it was in the past. Assault armies are weaker now, and assault in general is a poorer option than it was in the past. Tarpitting is worse, and overwatch penalizes units that try to tarpit us. Against shooting armies (GK, IG, Necrons, etc) Combat Tactics is near worthless. Most assault units that are still being used will simply wipe my minimum-sized bike squads in a single turn anyways. Sure, they can technically shoot me and I could potentially flee then - but they'd have to cause 2-3 wounds in the shooting phase (out of 6 wounds total) for the ability to even activate, and so far my opponents with these assault units have just opted not to fire in these cases and killed me in assault instead.

Grey knights would much rather assault you, then powerweapon you to death than shoot ap5ish weapons or shoot against jink with their harder weapons. Against most opponents I would not expect you to do very well in assault, you do have 3+ and t5 in your favour but you do not get many attacks and non with ap with your current list. I am not sure how assault armies have become worse at least against you, they can no longer charge from as many vehicles, but then things like hammer of wraith are painful, ap3 still kills bikes.

I have seen bike squads get caught in cc and they do eventually die if they can not run away, t5 means this does take time, which is where the combat tactics do help especially as the squad is scoring and so even a sole survivor has fair chance of winning the game for you.

Yes, combat tactics is useful in actual games. Every time I take a morale test I decide whether I would far rather be a good number of inches away from the enemy, the answer is usually, yes. You also get a free 3'' to readjust, very useful for dev. squads to get a better line and cover.

I have denied assaults when the enemy has been a little too gun happy before the assault phase so I can get out of there. Admittedly this would be argued a misplay by the enemy but then it is a risk the enemy plays and a risk that is no longer in his advantage with combat tactics.

I can also say when I play my bikes as Ravenwing fearless is pretty bad when you get close to the enemy. Once in assault the unit will be slowly killed and there is nothing you can do.

Also I have to say the 3d6'' run away is very long indeed, you should be wary unless you are fearless. If you fail morale you move a large distance, so easily off the board. Just premeasure and take a calculated risk.

Toban wrote:Mmmm I don't know if IG is better at holding objectives in/near terrains. Remember the new rule you'll can't shot to what you don't see. However, with 39 models on foot trying to stay in a building you'll certainly offer some body in LOS. This will allow your opponent to concetrate fire and eventualyl force you to some dangerous LD tests. Not to mention flamers specialists that could actually come close to you and then burn down half of your blob in a hit.

In many many many situations, depending of course by the positioning of the objetives, you'll be certainyl able to place 5 cloacked scouts. Claiming and out of TLOS.

Of course they wouldn't contribute a lot to the game but will free your bikes to late-back-rushes. Eldars however can move 48" for last second claim/contest.

If you'll choose Eldars consider Pathfinders, for 120 points you'll may take an interesting sniping unit with very good LOW AP effectiveness.

The real bonuses IG gives you are the -1/rerolling on enemy reserve/outflank rolls. The positive bonuses aren't really needed imho.

I don't know honestly, really is a matter of preferences.
For competitive situations I will take Eldars, for less pro situations I will certainly give a try to the IG.

Last thing, eventually taking IG it would really be a shame not having a Vendetta with them. This will not only help the Stormtalon but it will also a little target priority considerations to your opponent.

Generally speaking, I've found that the IG are either ignored or underestimated. With the bikes pushing forward, it's very difficult for an opponent to advance on them and cover their flanks, as my bikes will be Outflanking. Many opponents have rushed forward with transports against the gunline only to be destroyed by Outflanking bikes. Further, on average, there are going to be 4 pieces of terrain in my deployment zone. In my games, that has given more than enough terrain to at least give everyone 5+ cover saves.

I did consider how Eldar can psuedo-fill that role, and the late game contest does seem clutch. Pathfinders do seem interesting, at least.

So far, the CCS has been worth every point, both the Officer and the Astropath. Being able to reroll Outflank rolls, when I already roll so many, is useful.

Icelord wrote:Drop the speeders because there too easy to kill with glances.

Drop khan as he is overpriced. Take a generic SM captain on a bike (then you can take scoring bikes) give him artificer armor and hes only like 165 points with a power weapon and a better save! Infact you could give him a storm shield and still cost less that Khan!

I recommend you add an aegis defense line. It gives your guard and heavy weapons teams a free 4+ save and 2 more autocannons.

The more I play with the speeders, the less I'm liking them in this edition. It's funny that you mention dropping Khan in the same post, though, because I think Khan's Outflanking is really what gives the Attack Bikes the edge over the Land Speeders. Combat Tactics isn't very useful for an Attack Bike squad.

I agree that Khan by himself is overpriced, but what he adds to the army (Outflanking) and what he adds to a squad (FC and more importantly, Hit and Run) generally pays for itself, if not more.

The Aegis Defense line is something I really want in there, but I'm not sure what to cut for it.

cowmonaut wrote:Going to have to go with the trending advice. Attack Bikes over Land Speeders (especially with Outflank) An ADL wouldn't be a bad investment for the IG (I typically nay say it for Space Marines) and I have no idea what that Chimera for the CCS is supposed to be doing.

Yeah, I think the Outflank seals the deal. The Chimera is a holdover from when the entire IG allied detachment was mechanized and I just really hadn't thought its place through well enough.

MFletch wrote:Grey knights would much rather assault you, then powerweapon you to death than shoot ap5ish weapons or shoot against jink with their harder weapons. Against most opponents I would not expect you to do very well in assault, you do have 3+ and t5 in your favour but you do not get many attacks and non with ap with your current list. I am not sure how assault armies have become worse at least against you, they can no longer charge from as many vehicles, but then things like hammer of wraith are painful, ap3 still kills bikes.

I have seen bike squads get caught in cc and they do eventually die if they can not run away, t5 means this does take time, which is where the combat tactics do help especially as the squad is scoring and so even a sole survivor has fair chance of winning the game for you.

Yes, combat tactics is useful in actual games. Every time I take a morale test I decide whether I would far rather be a good number of inches away from the enemy, the answer is usually, yes. You also get a free 3'' to readjust, very useful for dev. squads to get a better line and cover.

I have denied assaults when the enemy has been a little too gun happy before the assault phase so I can get out of there. Admittedly this would be argued a misplay by the enemy but then it is a risk the enemy plays and a risk that is no longer in his advantage with combat tactics.

I can also say when I play my bikes as Ravenwing fearless is pretty bad when you get close to the enemy. Once in assault the unit will be slowly killed and there is nothing you can do.

Also I have to say the 3d6'' run away is very long indeed, you should be wary unless you are fearless. If you fail morale you move a large distance, so easily off the board. Just premeasure and take a calculated risk.

Sure, GK would much rather assault me. But why ever give them that chance? I don't have to get closer than 24", and I can pre-measure. Since they can't assault out of transports anymore they can't actually assault me. It's a lot harder to get into assault with a mobile unit now unless you have 'natural' movement - either you're on bikes, jumpbacks or the like. A lot of these situations where Combat Tactics is cited as being useful is getting assaulted by infantry. Why are you in range to be assaulted in the first place, in an edition where you can pre-measure? It's not like GK have the model count to effectively surround you.

But I don't have dev squads. I have Bike squads. I can already move 12" and fire at full effectiveness.

I think the enemies getting gun happy is a misplay - it's worked the first time against opponents, but after that they know just to assault you instead. Now they can even pre-measure and gauge whether it's more valuable to risk shooting you or just save it to assault. Granted, removing Combat Tactics means an opponent will get to shoot you for free, but I've never been concerned about the shooting damage of a dedicated assault unit.

What kind of units are you guys getting out of assault with? It seems a very narrow window these days - you must lose combat, but not get wiped. Even a GK squad with no real upgrades is throwing 21 attacks on the assault, which translates into 3.5 kills. An upgrade or two can easily make that 4 kills. Sure, it lets your last guy get away - but is it really worth forgoing Outflanking on your entire army and Hit and Run on a squad of your choice just to let single models run away in uncommon (I'd argue rare) situations?

OK then you put your bikers are 24'' then GK will out shoot you, yes, GK can assault from two of their vehicles.
You are theorying this out too much if you plan to be precisely 24'' away at all points in time and that will be your shield.

I could be wrong maybe you have played this a lot and find keeping away but not too far away from the enemy easy.
I find bike lists not so much hard as unforgiving to my mistakes or runs of bad luck.
good luck.

MFletch wrote:OK then you put your bikers are 24'' then GK will out shoot you, yes, GK can assault from two of their vehicles.
You are theorying this out too much if you plan to be precisely 24'' away at all points in time and that will be your shield.

I could be wrong maybe you have played this a lot and find keeping away but not too far away from the enemy easy.
I find bike lists not so much hard as unforgiving to my mistakes or runs of bad luck.
good luck.

You're refering to the Land Raider and Storm Raven, I assume. In my (admittedly limited) experience and after browsing GK lists, those transports tend to be fielded with dedicated assault units inside. So far, whenever I have been assaulted from a vehicle, I've been wiped. So Combat Tactics has been a moot point. Basically, my point is that when I do get assaulted, it's by something that's going to wipe out a Bike squad anyways. And even in the cases that I do survive, I'm taking a test at -3 or -4, which has pretty good odds of failing as is. So why bother having an ability that lets me run away rarely, when I can give every unit in my army Outflanking?

It's not really theorying out too much, as I've actually done this in games. Against a GK army and their foot troops, you have a similar model count, which means they can't really surround you. Now if I was playing Orks or something, I'd 100% agree with you - there'd just be too many units to avoid. But against GK, you move 12" or move and keep all your firepower. They move 6", and generally less, to avoid losing their firepower.

Again, I'm trying to reason this through. I was originally on the side of Khan is overcosted and Combat Tactics is gold. But the more I play with it and the more games I watch/read about, I see less situations where Combat Tactics would make a difference. Against what opponents are you guys finding that Combat Tactics is very useful against?