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OK,
So Lucius has armor that inflicts a wound on his opponent for every successful armor save he makes. How does this work if Lucius is attached to a squad?

If Lucius is not in b2b, you make regular saves on the squad until he is. However, if he and some other friendly model is in b2b, do you just need to roll his saves separately until you run out of wounds or Lucius dies? If Lucius and 1 other Noise Marine were in base (and the remainder of the noise marines were not in b2b), would you choose to either roll your saves against the Noise Marine or Lucius? (basically treat it as two different armor groups?)

interesting question, need to see Lucius wording verbatum to know for sure. Don't have books handy.

This is easy.

For every wound allocated to him that he passes an armor save against you inflict a wound on the enemy squad that did it.

Grey Templar wrote:This is easy.

For every wound allocated to him that he passes an armor save against you inflict a wound on the enemy squad that did it.

This works until you put him in a squad with the same armour save as wounds are allocated after saves are rolled.

I would personally treat it as a seperate armour group - like groups of models with different saves; that way, it's clear as to which saves he passes and which ones he fails.

Iranna.

Iranna wrote: I would personally treat it as a seperate armour group - like groups of models with different saves; that way, it's clear as to which saves he passes and which ones he fails.

Iranna.

This is what I am thinking.

Now, assuming he and other models are in b2b, could you theoretically roll one armor save at a time until you failed 2, then switch to another model in b2b? (i.e. roll until Lucius is almost dead, and then go to another model).

Iranna wrote:
I would personally treat it as a seperate armour group - like groups of models with different saves; that way, it's clear as to which saves he passes and which ones he fails.

Iranna.

Actually it would still be clear on which armor saves he makes or fails. Since the wounds are allocated before saving throws are made, if he chooses to allocate 3 to Lucius, and passes 2 of his 3 saves, then the squad takes 2 hits. In 6th you allocate before saves are made, the same with 5th, but all he would have to do is clearly announce which ones are saves for Lucius.

Lone Dragoon wrote:

Iranna wrote:
I would personally treat it as a seperate armour group - like groups of models with different saves; that way, it's clear as to which saves he passes and which ones he fails.

Iranna.

Actually it would still be clear on which armor saves he makes or fails. Since the wounds are allocated before saving throws are made, if he chooses to allocate 3 to Lucius, and passes 2 of his 3 saves, then the squad takes 2 hits. In 6th you allocate before saves are made, the same with 5th, but all he would have to do is clearly announce which ones are saves for Lucius.

If the unit all has the same save, wounds are allocated after saves.

Lone Dragoon wrote:

Iranna wrote:
I would personally treat it as a seperate armour group - like groups of models with different saves; that way, it's clear as to which saves he passes and which ones he fails.

Iranna.

Actually it would still be clear on which armor saves he makes or fails. Since the wounds are allocated before saving throws are made, if he chooses to allocate 3 to Lucius, and passes 2 of his 3 saves, then the squad takes 2 hits. In 6th you allocate before saves are made, the same with 5th, but all he would have to do is clearly announce which ones are saves for Lucius.

As Grendel said, if he has the same save as the joined squad (3+) the wounds are allocated after the saves.

A fun thing to do with him is running into a huge squad by himself. He gets his attacks, and then everyone left gets to attack him back. If it's an Ork mob that makes 60 attacks on him and gets 20 wounds, even if he dies they are all resolved at the same time, so that unit takes like 14 hits with no armor saves.

Now, I've never run him myself, but even in a group with the same armor save, couldn't you just assign him 2 wounds? He then obviously failed 2 armor saves, as he took two wounds!

Although I like Culsandar's idea better myself...

The default is allocating each hit and rolling each armor save separately, one after another.

If it doesn't make any difference, you can lump the rolls together to save time, but in this case you should do it one by one.

Also, once a model has been allocated a wound, you have to keep allocating and rolling saves until the model dies.

A fun, but somewhat risky tactic would be allocating all the hits on Lucius (assuming he's eligible) and using Look out Sir! to pass any failed saves to the rest of the unit.

"A fun, but somewhat risky tactic would be allocating all the hits on Lucius (assuming he's eligible) and using Look out Sir! to pass any failed saves to the rest of the unit."

You CANNOT do that. LOS! is rolled for BEFORE a save are rolled.

nosferatu1001 wrote:"A fun, but somewhat risky tactic would be allocating all the hits on Lucius (assuming he's eligible) and using Look out Sir! to pass any failed saves to the rest of the unit."

You CANNOT do that. LOS! is rolled for BEFORE a save are rolled.

Derp.

nosferatu1001 wrote:"A fun, but somewhat risky tactic would be allocating all the hits on Lucius (assuming he's eligible) and using Look out Sir! to pass any failed saves to the rest of the unit."

You CANNOT do that. LOS! is rolled for BEFORE a save are rolled.

LOS can move an unsaved wound or a wound. If he is the same armour save then why not?

If I remember rightly - regardless of whether you roll saves before or after allocating. Don't you have to keep allocating wounds to the same eligible model until it's dead before you can start allocating to another eligible model?

If so, it becomes more a case of when you start allocating to Lucius, then simply take them on him one-by-one (or more if you like, depending on his number of Wounds) and only stop either once he's dead or the Wound pool is depleted.

liturgies of blood wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:"A fun, but somewhat risky tactic would be allocating all the hits on Lucius (assuming he's eligible) and using Look out Sir! to pass any failed saves to the rest of the unit."

You CANNOT do that. LOS! is rolled for BEFORE a save are rolled.

LOS can move an unsaved wound or a wound. If he is the same armour save then why not?

Hits are allocated before saves are rolled for mixed armour units. Even though Lucius might have the same armor saving throw as the unit, it is still a mixed armour unit - only Lucius' saved wounds bounce back. LOS comes into play when the wound is allocated, so Lucius has to roll for LOS before attempting an armour save. If he risks it, he has to lose a wound on a failed save.

This strategy does actually work, but it's a bit riskier than I first made it out to be:

A) Allocate the hit to Lucius
B) Roll save: if you succeed, zap your enemy and go back to A), otherwise go to C)
C) Save failed, Lucius takes a wound. Go to A) if more than one wound left, otherwise continue to D)
D) Lucius on his last wound, start rolling for LOS and hope Lucius' buddies help him out. On a success, transfer the wound to somebody else, otherwise go back to A) and cross your fingers.

No, it's more
A) allocate to lucius
b) roll to save, if successful go to A, otherwise C
c) roll LOS, if successful remove a model within 6", otherwise D
d) take a wound off lucius, if no wounds remain remove model, otherwise go to A.

LOS is for Wounds or unsaved wounds. You can roll the saves for lucius all in one go if the squad has the same armour save and attempt a LOS roll for each of your unsaved wounds. Kill models to soak up those wounds and then if you have any left from the pool of unsaved wounds that didn't LOS you take them off lucius. Welcome to 6th ed wound shenanigans.

Warbrucey wrote:Hits are allocated before saves are rolled for mixed armour units. Even though Lucius might have the same armor saving throw as the unit, it is still a mixed armour unit - only Lucius' saved wounds bounce back. LOS comes into play when the wound is allocated, so Lucius has to roll for LOS before attempting an armour save. If he risks it, he has to lose a wound on a failed save.

Do you have rules basis for this?

As I understand it, you roll all saves at once, if they are the same (3+), then allocate the wounds to any models in btb. It does not matter if there are characters in the unit, if they all share the same save, you roll them together first then assign.

Example - if you roll 12 saves, and save 9, you allocate those to one model, so that model saves 9 times, fails one, then you nominate another to take the next fail.

You also apply LOS after saves are made if the model with LOS has the same save as every other model in the unit. It does not make special exception to an individual model's special rules.

Therefore, order of operations for Lucius + CSM squad is as such-

1.) Assigned 12 saves from close combat initiative step
-Lucius and other models are in btb
2.) Roll 12 saves, making 9 failing 3.
3.) Assign saves, one at a time, to the chosen model
-Chosen model being Lucius, he succeeded in 9 saves, and has failed 3
4.) LOS is allowed for the 3 failed saves per the LOS rules, rolled one at a time.
-If passed, those 3 wounds go to other models in the unit, if failed remain on Lucius.
5.) resolve Lucius' armor, applying 9 hits to the enemy unit.

If this is not the order of operations, then the line under LOS ",or unsaved wounds" has no application. As this is the the proper time for it to be used (the unit all having same save).

Both are legal, the former makes more sense. If Lucius is on his last save LOS until he dies or eats all the wounds.

Captain Antivas wrote:Both are legal, the former makes more sense. If Lucius is on his last save LOS until he dies or eats all the wounds.

Depends on the unit you're tagging on or if there is an AP2 weapon in the unit. May want to keep some wounds on Lucius.

While you are right that both are valid, I was addressing the idea that you have to do it warbrucey's way. In fact the rules point to doing it the way I said and choosing to eat the wounds or LOS depending on how you feel, since it throws in LOS before save for mixed armour.

liturgies of blood wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:Both are legal, the former makes more sense. If Lucius is on his last save LOS until he dies or eats all the wounds.

Depends on the unit you're tagging on or if there is an AP2 weapon in the unit. May want to keep some wounds on Lucius.

While you are right that both are valid, I was addressing the idea that you have to do it warbrucey's way. In fact the rules point to doing it the way I said and choosing to eat the wounds or LOS depending on how you feel, since it throws in LOS before save for mixed armour.

Well that's true. But let's also remember this isn't shooting and the only AP2 melee weapons are unwieldy. Lucius would need to be in base contact with ateast one of them for that to matter.

I'd say a 3+ save and a 3+ save that bounces hits back are not the same. Hence, mixed armour and LOS before saves.

Warbrucey wrote:I'd say a 3+ save and a 3+ save that bounces hits back are not the same. Hence, mixed armour and LOS before saves.

It's nice that you think that, but that isn't what the rules say. The only requirement in the book is the 3+.

culsandar wrote:

Warbrucey wrote:I'd say a 3+ save and a 3+ save that bounces hits back are not the same. Hence, mixed armour and LOS before saves.

It's nice that you think that, but that isn't what the rules say. The only requirement in the book is the 3+.

This isn't shooting. This is assault. Assault wound allocation says allocate wounds, take saves, remove casualties.

Captain Antivas wrote:This isn't shooting. This is assault. Assault wound allocation says allocate wounds, take saves, remove casualties.

Odd. Mine says you treat it just as shooting, only you replace "closest model" with "model in btb of init step attacker". Nothing I see in the assault section says you redo the allocation step from shooting.

culsandar wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:This isn't shooting. This is assault. Assault wound allocation says allocate wounds, take saves, remove casualties.

Odd. Mine says you treat it just as shooting, only you replace "closest model" with "model in btb of init step attacker". Nothing I see in the assault section says you redo the allocation step from shooting.

The only reference to shooting is wounds are allocated to the closest model first like shooting. Before that it says after hits have been calculated you allocated, save, remove.

culsandar wrote:
Therefore, order of operations for Lucius + CSM squad is as such-

1.) Assigned 12 saves from close combat initiative step
-Lucius and other models are in btb
2.) Roll 12 saves, making 9 failing 3.
3.) Assign saves, one at a time, to the chosen model
-Chosen model being Lucius, he succeeded in 9 saves, and has failed 3
4.) LOS is allowed for the 3 failed saves per the LOS rules, rolled one at a time.
-If passed, those 3 wounds go to other models in the unit, if failed remain on Lucius.
5.) resolve Lucius' armor, applying 9 hits to the enemy unit.

If this is not the order of operations, then the line under LOS ",or unsaved wounds" has no application. As this is the the proper time for it to be used (the unit all having same save).

Your step three should be assign unsaved wounds. Same save units do not assign hits, only unsaved wounds.

Thus, going by this interpretation, Lucius' rule never comes into play as he didn't succeed in any saves (the unit did).

Still even though it's not shooting, is a 3+ save, different form a 3+ save on a model with a unique rule.
In that case is a model with a 3+ armour save treated as different in a squad of 3+ armour saves where everyone else has FNP?