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Okay gents, a bit of a tough question...or well a couple of questions...

1. If a squad has a rapid fire weapon that does not have LOS to an enemy unit or the controlling player decides not to shoot with it, and the rapid fire weapon is thus not fired, but other assault weapons in the squad are, can the unit still assault? (Basically the rapid fire weapon wasn't fired, thus not limiting the squads assault)

2. If the rapid fire weapon is fired (has LOS), but the firer is killed via Get's Hot!, does that hold the rest of the unit from assaulting? I would say yes because he still shot the weapon with the unit, although it killed him, thus barring the rest of the unit from assaulting. The only counter arguement is that 6th ed. is going more with a "by model" situation....aka with moving a unit with a heavy weapon.

Many thanks for the help.

Basically the bottom line, is if a squad fires, do I HAVE to shoot ALL weapons in the squad?

1. You do not have to fire all weapons. If you elect to not shoot the rapid-fire weapons, then you may still assault.

2. This is actually a really good question. I'll check it out when I get home. I'd say off the top of my head that you still can't assault because the unit assaults, not the model.

MadMaverick76 wrote:Okay gents, a bit of a tough question...or well a couple of questions...

1. If a squad has a rapid fire weapon that does not have LOS to an enemy unit or the controlling player decides not to shoot with it, and the rapid fire weapon is thus not fired, but other assault weapons in the squad are, can the unit still assault? (Basically the rapid fire weapon wasn't fired, thus not limiting the squads assault)

2. If the rapid fire weapon is fired (has LOS), but the firer is killed via Get's Hot!, does that hold the rest of the unit from assaulting? I would say yes because he still shot the weapon with the unit, although it killed him, thus barring the rest of the unit from assaulting. The only counter arguement is that 6th ed. is going more with a "by model" situation....aka with moving a unit with a heavy weapon.

Many thanks for the help.

Basically the bottom line, is if a squad fires, do I HAVE to shoot ALL weapons in the squad?

1. What he said.
2. No, the squad can charge. In the assault phase no one in the unit is restricted from charging because he died. If he lived they could not but since no one who wants to charge had fired rapid fire they are not restricted.

No, the squad can not charge. From page 20 of the Warhammer 40K 6th edition rulebook:

Some units are disallowed from charging. Common reasons a unit is not allowed to declare a charge include... The unit shot Rapid Fire weapons, Salvo weapons, Ordnance weapons or Heavy weapons in the Shooting phase... This even applies if Snap Shots were made with these weapons.

I see nothing that would lift this restriction just because the model firing the Rapid Fire weapon is removed as a casualty before you declare the charge.

Ghaz wrote:No, the squad can not charge. From page 20 of the Warhammer 40K 6th edition rulebook:

Some units are disallowed from charging. Common reasons a unit is not allowed to declare a charge include... The unit shot Rapid Fire weapons, Salvo weapons, Ordnance weapons or Heavy weapons in the Shooting phase... This even applies if Snap Shots were made with these weapons.

I see nothing that would lift this restriction just because the model firing the Rapid Fire weapon is removed as a casualty before you declare the charge.

Page 20 directs you to Page 51-52 for more information. Page 52 says:

"Models that shoot with Rapid Fire weapons in the Shooting phase cannot charge in the ensuing Assault phase."

Not units with models who fire Rapid Fire, but models who fire Rapid Fire cannot assault. The model who fired Rapid Fire is not charging.

The restriction is per model. If one model can't assault the whole unit can't assault. If that models dies because of gets hot or a stray blast, that restriction is lifted.

And again, I see nothing on either page that lifts the restriction on page 20. It is a unit that fired a Rapid Fire weapon and thus it can not declare a charge even if that model was removed as a casualty.

Ghaz wrote:And again, I see nothing on either page that lifts the restriction on page 20. It is a unit that fired a Rapid Fire weapon and thus it can not declare a charge even if that model was removed as a casualty.

Page 20 conflicts with page 52. In the case of conflicts you look.to the specific vs the general. Like you said a unit charges not a model. Generally a unit that has a model that shoots a rapid fire weapon cannot assault because that model has the restriction placed on them by the rapid fire rules. If that model blows himself up (using the specific Gets Hot! Rule, which the only way this situation will come up is with a special rule of somekind) the unit has no restriction because the model that had the restriction placed on them is removed as a casualty. His ghost does not remain behind hindering the rest of his unit. General is trumped by specific. Generally a model that fires rapid fire will be there when they assault. In this specific case he is not.

There is no conflict.

Page 20 A unit that a unit that shot rapid fire weapons etc... Cannot declare a charge.

Who is the model a part of when he fired his rapid fire weapon? Answer = A unit.

Can a unit that fired rapid fire weapons charge? Answer, no!

When the model blew himself up with a Plasma Gun, he was part of the unit, there is no exception, he fired while part of a unit, the unit cannot charge, no matter what happened to him after firing (which means the unit fired, because he is a part of it)

Of course page 52 refers to "model" since when does it take a unit to fire one Plasma gun? If it said a "unit" that fires a rapid fire weapon can fire twice at half range, then the entire unit would get 2 shots in total regardless of how many members it had.
Each model in the unit with a Rapid Fire weapon can fire twice at half range. It does not say "when a model in a unit fires a Rapid Fire weapon, you immediatly cease to be a unit and become 10 individuals, then suddenly become a unit again after resolving your shots"

He belongs to a unit, it shot, no charging.

There is no conflict. One disallows the model from charging while the other disallows the unit from charging. By allowing the unit to charge you are breaking the rules on page 20.

For what its worth, the wording is the same as 5th edition. The rules for Rapid Fire weapons only disallowed the model from charging but the rules for declaring charges disallowed the unit from charging.

No matter what fluff justifications you make, the rules are quite clear. It is a unit that fired a Rapid Fire weapon and thus is disallowed from declaring a charge.

Ghaz wrote:There is no conflict. One disallows the model from charging while the other disallows the unit from charging. By allowing the unit to charge you are breaking the rules on page 20.

For what its worth, the wording is the same as 5th edition. The rules for Rapid Fire weapons only disallowed the model from charging but the rules for declaring charges disallowed the unit from charging.

No matter what fluff justifications you make, the rules are quite clear. It is a unit that fired a Rapid Fire weapon and thus is disallowed from declaring a charge.

I made no fluff argument, what are you talking about? The rule for Rapid Fire weapons says a model, not a unit. Page 20 tells you to reference Pages 51-52 for the explanation of the statement. Specific wins.

Captain Antivas wrote:I made no fluff argument, what are you talking about?

So there are rules for ghosts now? That's your 'fluff argument'.
Plus you've still not proven that there is a conflict. Page 52 does not 'win' because there is no conflict for it to 'win'. You apply both rules.

Sure pg 52 says "a model" but pg 20 still says that a unit that fired a rapid fire wpn cannot charge. Even if that plasma gunner dies he still shot his gun while he was a part of the unit. That plasma gun model might not be there on the assault phase but his unit is under the restriction because he shot a gun that blew him up. Sure, it seems a little nit picky but I'm pretty sure that's the way it's going to work.

Ghaz wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:I made no fluff argument, what are you talking about?

So there are rules for ghosts now? That's your 'fluff argument'.
Plus you've still not proven that there is a conflict. Page 52 does not 'win' because there is no conflict for it to 'win'. You apply both rules.

There are no rules for ghosts...that was my point...

I find it meaningful that they used unit to describe the rapid fire rules except when referencing assaults...

Let me ask you a question. If the model had fired a plasma cannon would that change things?

Units that shoot rapid fire weapons cannot charge the same turn they shot rapid fire weapons. If the model with the rapid fire weapon dies, then too bad. You still can't charge because he belonged to the UNIT and they shot a rapid fire weapon.

robzidious wrote:Units that shoot rapid fire weapons cannot charge the same turn they shot rapid fire weapons. If the model with the rapid fire weapon dies, then too bad. You still can't charge because he belonged to the UNIT and they shot a rapid fire weapon.

The ruke doesnt say that. The rules for rapid firing says models.

Captain Antivas wrote:

robzidious wrote:Units that shoot rapid fire weapons cannot charge the same turn they shot rapid fire weapons. If the model with the rapid fire weapon dies, then too bad. You still can't charge because he belonged to the UNIT and they shot a rapid fire weapon.

The ruke doesnt say that. The rules for rapid firing says models.

The rule does say that quite clearly actually. Units that shoot rapid fire weapons cannot declare a charge the turn they shot rapid fire weapons. Just because a model died due to the gets hot rule doesn't suddenly mean the unit can charge. The UNIT fired rapid fire that turn.

You're using the same logic as say taking a 10 man tac squad with a missile launcher, moving 9 of them, keeping missile launcher in coherency, not moving it, and saying "he didn't move, so he gets to shoot as normal." No, that's not how it works. If one model in the unit shot with rapid fire, the unit can't charge.

Just tossing it out there, is there any case outside of dangerous terrain and plasma that will cause this conflict? This seems like a seriously rare occurance IMO.

robzidious wrote:You're using the same logic as say taking a 10 man tac squad with a missile launcher, moving 9 of them, keeping missile launcher in coherency, not moving it, and saying "he didn't move, so he gets to shoot as normal." No, that's not how it works. If one model in the unit shot with rapid fire, the unit can't charge.

Actually that is exactly how it works for that 10 man Tac Squad.

If the model with a Heavy Weapon does not move, he can fire at normal BS.

DeathReaper wrote:

robzidious wrote:You're using the same logic as say taking a 10 man tac squad with a missile launcher, moving 9 of them, keeping missile launcher in coherency, not moving it, and saying "he didn't move, so he gets to shoot as normal." No, that's not how it works. If one model in the unit shot with rapid fire, the unit can't charge.

Actually that is exactly how it works for that 10 man Tac Squad.

If the model with a Heavy Weapon does not move, he can fire at normal BS.

I would have to re-look at it. I know previouisly the unit was counting as having moved thus couldn't fire (in the old...would be fire only snap shots in new).

Regardless, we are getting off topic here. If the point I was using to illustrate was incorrect, I apologize (don't have the rules directly in front of me atm.)

I see both points to the argument, but I'm basing it off everything I've read about rapid fire units assaulting in the new rule book. That is how I play it (and the folks I play with regularly). If there is disagreement just dice off for it.

Page 51. has the rules for Heavy Weapons.

DeathReaper wrote:Page 51. has the rules for Heavy Weapons.

Thanks. That's actually important for me to review since the situation I listed does happen in games I play in from time to time. Will review again. Still trying to soak in all these new rules.

DeathReaper wrote:

robzidious wrote:You're using the same logic as say taking a 10 man tac squad with a missile launcher, moving 9 of them, keeping missile launcher in coherency, not moving it, and saying "he didn't move, so he gets to shoot as normal." No, that's not how it works. If one model in the unit shot with rapid fire, the unit can't charge.

Actually that is exactly how it works for that 10 man Tac Squad.

If the model with a Heavy Weapon does not move, he can fire at normal BS.

I believe that this was a change from 5th edition, if I remember correctly.

BlueDagger wrote:Just tossing it out there, is there any case outside of dangerous terrain and plasma that will cause this conflict? This seems like a seriously rare occurance IMO.

Well it actually isn't that rare with so many people switching to plasma guns and wanting to be able to assault after having their gunner explode! I had it happen in two games in a row. We ruled that the guy pulled the trigger, and exploded, so no assault for the unit So the weapon was fired, and that the unit declared it was shooting with the plasma being part of that unit and firing as well.

I'd still consider that very rare. People shooting a plasma gun banking on it getting hott and then failing the subsequent armor so they can charge strikes me a bit odd. I would think in most cases if you want to assault shooting that one gun wouldn't be worth the risk of not being able to assault, so they just won't fire it.

BlueDagger wrote:I'd still consider that very rare. People shooting a plasma gun banking on it getting hott and then failing the subsequent armor so they can charge strikes me a bit odd. I would think in most cases if you want to assault shooting that one gun wouldn't be worth the risk of not being able to assault, so they just won't fire it.

It's more a case of having a unit of assault weaponry and a plasma gunner at say 9" from the enemy, a unit of wolf scouts and a wolf guard with a combi-plasma for example. The enemy are poor in combat but have decent armour, 3+, I could loose the combat but need to break the squad. I blast at them with a melta and a combi-plasma, the normal scouts shoot their pistols. The plasma goes wrong and kills the WG, the squad takes a wound but doesn't break.

That is where I would want to assault, it can happen and similar situations have presented themselves for space wolf players in the past due to counter attack ensuring a minimal loss of attacks by allowing the enemy to charge.

DeathReaper wrote:

robzidious wrote:You're using the same logic as say taking a 10 man tac squad with a missile launcher, moving 9 of them, keeping missile launcher in coherency, not moving it, and saying "he didn't move, so he gets to shoot as normal." No, that's not how it works. If one model in the unit shot with rapid fire, the unit can't charge.

Actually that is exactly how it works for that 10 man Tac Squad.

If the model with a Heavy Weapon does not move, he can fire at normal BS.

QFT. Page 13 under Moving and Shooting.