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Like usual, after every game we seem to have scenarios that pop up that no one can seem to answer definitively.
1) Eternal Warrior Vs Labyrinth: for those of you who dont know, Labyrinth is a necron ability (on a roll of 4+ enemy model in base contact is removed as a casualty). How would this work with Eternal Warrior?
2) Labyrinth Vs Who Won combat: Say for example Labyrinth kills a librarian with 2W. Would the 2W go towards the amount of wounds inflicted?
3) Sweeping advance vs Everliving: Im sure this is a simple on, would necrons get a chance to re animate after a sweep?
4) MSS: an Honor Guard gets hit with MSS, he has a Relic Blade (ap3) and a Power Ax (ap2), who gets to choose what weapon he strikes with?

Thanks!

Texanity wrote:Like usual, after every game we seem to have scenarios that pop up that no one can seem to answer definitively.
1) Eternal Warrior Vs Labyrinth: for those of you who dont know, Labyrinth is a necron ability (on a roll of 4+ enemy model in base contact is removed as a casualty). How would this work with Eternal Warrior?
2) Labyrinth Vs Who Won combat: Say for example Labyrinth kills a librarian with 2W. Would the 2W go towards the amount of wounds inflicted?
3) Sweeping advance vs Everliving: Im sure this is a simple on, would necrons get a chance to re animate after a sweep?
4) MSS: an Honor Guard gets hit with MSS, he has a Relic Blade (ap3) and a Power Ax (ap2), who gets to choose what weapon he strikes with?

Thanks!

1. Eternal Warrior ignores the effects of Instant Death. There is a difference between being removed as a casualty and suffering from ID. The end result is the same, but you follow two different roads to get there. ID is achieved two ways: being hit by a weapon whose strength is double your toughness, or being hit by a weapon/ability with the ID special rule. Even with EW you are still removed as a casualty since you did not suffer ID.

2. Since no unsaved Wounds are caused (being removed as a casualty is not the same as having your wounds reduced to 0, (again end result is the same but a different path was taken to get there) you do not count the wounds for the Assault results. "To decide who has won the combat, total up the number of unsaved Wounds inflicted by each side onto their opponents."

3. No. Once the unit is destroyed you cannot use Reanimation Protocols anymore.

4. "These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength, and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice." Pretty clear if you ask me.

As above. You will get people arguing about 3, but being told that AGAIN, 3 editions in a row that no special rule can save them - RP / EL being special rules - means that no special rule can save them.

3 In 6th edition sweeping advance rule has changed. It now specifically removes models as casualties so EL can be applied. RP cannot be applied because the RP counters are removed when the Morale test is failed.

copper.talos wrote:3 In 6th edition sweeping advance rule has changed. It now specifically removes models as casualties so EL can be applied. RP cannot be applied because the RP counters are removed when the Morale test is failed.

Truth. That is all.

Captain Antivas wrote:

copper.talos wrote:3 In 6th edition sweeping advance rule has changed. It now specifically removes models as casualties so EL can be applied. RP cannot be applied because the RP counters are removed when the Morale test is failed.

False. RP counters are removed when the unit is destroyed, not when they fall back. If the unit falls back and is not caught in a sweeping advance they can test for RP as normal. If they are caught in a sweeping advance they are destroyed and cannot test for RP.

Copper is actually right on this one.
Per the Necron Codex pg 29: "If the unit makes a fall back move, remove any counters from it -- any damaged Necrons are left behind and self-destruct rather than risk capture by the enemy.

I will not comment on EL vs SA as I don't have the rulebook on me.

Icemyn wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:

copper.talos wrote:3 In 6th edition sweeping advance rule has changed. It now specifically removes models as casualties so EL can be applied. RP cannot be applied because the RP counters are removed when the Morale test is failed.

False. RP counters are removed when the unit is destroyed, not when they fall back. If the unit falls back and is not caught in a sweeping advance they can test for RP as normal. If they are caught in a sweeping advance they are destroyed and cannot test for RP.

Copper is actually right on this one.
Per the Necron Codex pg 29: "If the unit makes a fall back move, remove any counters from it -- any damaged Necrons are left behind and self-destruct rather than risk capture by the enemy.

I will not comment on EL vs SA as I don't have the rulebook on me.

OMG, how did I miss that? Thanks for the update.

copper.talos wrote:3 In 6th edition sweeping advance rule has changed. It now specifically removes models as casualties so EL can be applied. RP cannot be applied because the RP counters are removed when the Morale test is failed.

NO SPECIAL RULES may save the unit. The unit is destroyed. Are you trying to rescue the unit from being destroyed? Arey ou doing it with a special rule? Then you have broken a rule.

It is the same rule as 5th, with regards the restrictions on rescuing a unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

copper.talos wrote:3 In 6th edition sweeping advance rule has changed. It now specifically removes models as casualties so EL can be applied. RP cannot be applied because the RP counters are removed when the Morale test is failed.

NO SPECIAL RULES may save the unit. The unit is destroyed. Are you trying to rescue the unit from being destroyed? Arey ou doing it with a special rule? Then you have broken a rule.

It is the same rule as 5th, with regards the restrictions on rescuing a unit.

So basically nothing has changed with the SA vs EL Ruling from 5th to 6th? Good times. Let the games begin.

3. You can use EL after a sweeping advance. You have to place the token and then make the roll as normal. The unit that swept might prevent you from being able to return with their consolidation move.

Fragile wrote:3. You can use EL after a sweeping advance. You have to place the token and then make the roll as normal. The unit that swept might prevent you from being able to return with their consolidation move.

"Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over."

EL is a special rule that does not specify otherwise.

Models with EL are gone as well.

"at this stage" is the key part. Nothing can save from the sweeping advance, but EL models are rolled for at the end of the phase.

The problem is that EL works when a model is removed as a casualty. SA specifically says that the model is removed as a casualty. To be honest the argument holds more weight then in 5th ed when the model was simply removed. Does not necessarily mean I agree with it however.

Fragile wrote:"at this stage" is the key part. Nothing can save from the sweeping advance, but EL models are rolled for at the end of the phase.

This is the exact same wording as 4th AND 5th edition.

In 4th edition WBB was the canonical example of a special rule that didnt work. WBB worked an entire TURN later, potentially. So youre saying they were wrong, all along, with WBB?

Nothing can save the unit at this stage means that, by the time you reach this point nothing can save the unit. It does not mean that nothing can save the unit at this point, but can do so later on.

Just out of curiosity nos, did 4th ed SA remove the models as casualties, or just remove them? I know in 5th ed the unit was removed, in 6th ed they are RFPaaC.

It just removed the unit. It didnt alter that the line about no special rules was where WBB was mentioned, which is where the proponents of lets-twist "at this stage" to mean somethigng else are claiming EL can have any effect.

The main reason I can find that WBB would not have worked (and the same reason EL wouldn't work in 5th ed) is due to the fact they require the model to be removed as a casualty.
In 4th ed and 5th ed, Sweeping Advance simply removed the model from play. Now however, Sweeping Advance specifically states that the model is removed as a casualty. This to me says that anything that can be used when removed as a casualty (such as MI or EL) can in fact be used if the model is removed via Sweeping Advance.

Edit: nos I already know your rebuttal is most likely going to be about the saving the unit "at this stage" part. However, if you feel the need to post it...

Except it specifies that NO SPECIAL RULE may save the unit at this stage

EL is a special rule

WBB was disallowed from working BECAUSE it is a special rule

The fact you are removed as casualties has no bearing on this. The important part is "no special rule" and "specify". WBB and EL/RP never specify, so they dont work.

I no longer have those FAQs, but I am curious did they give a reason why it would not work, or are you just inferring that the reason they said no is because it is a special rule?

Not trying to start anything I really am curious about this.

"Unless otherwise stated, no special rule (such as WBB) may save the unit at this time" is the rough quote. No inferring required, it was the canonical *example* of the special rule that doesnt work.

AS stated: Being removed as a casualty has no bearing on this, it is that NO SPECIAL RULE may save them.

Is that from the FAQ, or from the rulebook?

Also = not a FAQ, it was the 4th ed rulebook.

The FAQ documents are freely available online, so if you can post here you still have it. To make it easy here it is.

The BYB says that a unit caught in a Sweeping Advance is immediately removed as casualties and that, unless the special rule specifically says otherwise, no special rule can save the unit. The Necron FAQ doesn't change the special rules for Reanimation Protocol or Ever Living and the special rules don't specify that they can save a unit from a Sweeping Advance. Hence the unit is toast.

For a fluffy perspective, a Sweeping Advance is kind of like one unit breaking and getting chopped to tiny bits by the other. Basically it simulates things like blood lust, or going around staking "dead" vampires to make sure they stay down. Hence why EL/RP don't save you.

I was referring to the older FAQs not the current 6th ed ones. I (nor anyone at my LFGS) play Necrons so I don't have a stake in this. Also if you look back at the last time EL and SA came up my argument was always the not removed as a casualty. I never brought up the special rules saving the unit. At least I don't think I did.

EL would, if passed, save the unit, which is against the rules of SA

The unit cannot be saved by a special rule, unless the rule specifies it works against SA. Like ATSKNF

EL/RP do not specify they work against SA, so they dont.

So what about Miraculous Intervention?

Captain Antivas wrote:

Texanity wrote:Like usual, after every game we seem to have scenarios that pop up that no one can seem to answer definitively.
1) Eternal Warrior Vs Labyrinth: for those of you who dont know, Labyrinth is a necron ability (on a roll of 4+ enemy model in base contact is removed as a casualty). How would this work with Eternal Warrior?
2) Labyrinth Vs Who Won combat: Say for example Labyrinth kills a librarian with 2W. Would the 2W go towards the amount of wounds inflicted?
3) Sweeping advance vs Everliving: Im sure this is a simple on, would necrons get a chance to re animate after a sweep?
4) MSS: an Honor Guard gets hit with MSS, he has a Relic Blade (ap3) and a Power Ax (ap2), who gets to choose what weapon he strikes with?

Thanks!

1. Eternal Warrior ignores the effects of Instant Death. There is a difference between being removed as a casualty and suffering from ID. The end result is the same, but you follow two different roads to get there. ID is achieved two ways: being hit by a weapon whose strength is double your toughness, or being hit by a weapon/ability with the ID special rule. Even with EW you are still removed as a casualty since you did not suffer ID.

2. Since no unsaved Wounds are caused (being removed as a casualty is not the same as having your wounds reduced to 0, (again end result is the same but a different path was taken to get there) you do not count the wounds for the Assault results. "To decide who has won the combat, total up the number of unsaved Wounds inflicted by each side onto their opponents."

3. No. Once the unit is destroyed you cannot use Reanimation Protocols anymore.

4. "These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength, and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice." Pretty clear if you ask me.

I know there's a fight about RP/EL and SA going on in here, I just wanted to clarify on your post that Ever Living units always get to roll to come back (except for SA, IMO) even if the unit they were in is destroyed by Non-SA means.

Though I do still have a reservation about EL models that are already replaced by the counter by the time SA happens, I think they should still get to come back but I don't think that's how it would be ruled as if GW ever clarified for us. So, I just play it as SA removes everything (except fearless guys and, of course, space marines).

Kevin949 wrote:[

I know there's a fight about RP/EL and SA going on in here, I just wanted to clarify on your post that Ever Living units always get to roll to come back (except for SA, IMO) even if the unit they were in is destroyed by Non-SA means.

Though I do still have a reservation about EL models that are already replaced by the counter by the time SA happens, I think they should still get to come back but I don't think that's how it would be ruled as if GW ever clarified for us. So, I just play it as SA removes everything (except fearless guys and, of course, space marines).

Just a side note, Fearless models never fall back from combat and thus cannot be swept.

Happyjew wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

I know there's a fight about RP/EL and SA going on in here, I just wanted to clarify on your post that Ever Living units always get to roll to come back (except for SA, IMO) even if the unit they were in is destroyed by Non-SA means.

Though I do still have a reservation about EL models that are already replaced by the counter by the time SA happens, I think they should still get to come back but I don't think that's how it would be ruled as if GW ever clarified for us. So, I just play it as SA removes everything (except fearless guys and, of course, space marines).

Just a side note, Fearless models never fall back from combat and thus cannot be swept.

Ok...how is that different from what I said? Sorry, not being a smartass here I just don't see the need for the clarification.

Reading what you wrote implies (to me anyway) that nothing happens if a fearless unit gets caught in a sweeping advance. A unit can never attempt to sweep a Fearless unit as it will never fall back from combat.

If that is not what you were saying, my apologies.