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Not too long ago I blogged at some length about the Grey Knights, examining them and dissecting the various problems I detected with them as a faction within 40K. I found many.

My blog hardly ever gets any views, and this was an article I spent weeks working on and was hoping to get some discussion on, so if you'd be so kind as to give it a read I'd be particularly interested to hear what you folks think of my analysis.

I apologize if the tone of the article gets a bit irate. My feelings on the matter were especially strong at the time, and articulating them was difficult. I admit I focused only on the codices and not the novels or other sources, chiefly because I wanted to examine the flaws and merits of the codices as standalone books rather than analyze the faction as a free-floating entity within the broader canon. Or something like that; it's complicated.

Anyway, if you've the patience, I'd be grateful to hear your opinions.

I actually agree, for the most part. While GK do have the best equipment, can't be tainted, etc, they are one of the most despicable organizations in the galaxy, and if GKs are Mary Sues on the battlefield and damn near invinicible, off the field (or afterwards), they are complete dicks to everyone who helped them, showing no respect to anyone other than Inquisitors or fellow GK.

I agree Bloodtide was dumb, but I've chosen to ignore that piece of fluff and replace it with something this isn't asinine.

It seems to me that you're less than impressed by the Grey Knight Codex. I think ALL Codex hype their own faction, maybe it just comes across as more arrogant when the faction is meant to be better than everyone else. Have you read the Grey Knight Omnibus (by Ben Counter)? I feel it is as balanced as any other 40k Novel I've read.

Now Grey Knights are meant to be better than everyone else, but I don't mean by much. They burn through more candidates and do a little more training, but this is hardly what makes them so important. The big ol' reason is because they fight Daemons. Daemons are the reason they do everything to the extreme. If you ask me, GKs hype daemons more than anything. It's Daemons that make them kill their own brethren. Daemons are the reason they need to all by psykers. Daemons are the reason they are trained more than other marines and get better gear. Daemons are the reason they exist. In an article about GK fluff, you barely even mentioned Daemons.



TL: DR It's just a Codex man. You can take it with a grain of salt. Also you have overlooked Daemons almost completely.

Oh for...

Look, the term Mary Sue refers to wish fulfillment. While the Grey Knights have elements of that, one has to remember their drawbacks as well. They are critically flawed, hardline fanatics that make the third Reich look like mall cops. They'll exterminate entire populations on the rumour that there may have been some IG soldiers on leave there, that may have fought against daemons some time ago, maybe.

Only the most shallow, least critical of readers would accuse the Grey Knights of being Mary Sue.

They have the best equipment and training? Yes, I suppose they do have access to the best Whirlwinds, Sternguard rounds, Predator variants, all the different types of heavy weapon, the Stormtalon, Landspeeders, Bikes, Ironclad Dreadnoughts, Stormshields, Lightning Claws, and a wide rang of special weapons to boot!

Oh, no. My bad. That's a list of things they DON'T have.

But lets assume they DO have all the best equipment (even though they don't): They are the personal standing army of the Inquisition, the most powerful organisation in the entire galaxy. Complaining about that is like reading a history book and complaining that Roman Praetorian Guards had the best equipment. Ordinary legionnaires were bad-ass enough, why would the Emperors use such obviously Mary Sue troops as bodyguards?

They never suffer ill effects of being a psyker? Of course they do. They aren't immune to the perils of the warp, and their decades-long recruitment process and one-in-a-million success rate weeds eliminates the vulnerable. Why not complain about the librarians of other chapters?

It isn't really about it "just being a codex", though.

You don't read the Imperial Guard codex and come away from it thinking "Wow, the Guard are way better than everyone else in the Galaxy."

You don't read the Eldar/Dark Eldar codexes and come away from them thinking "Wow, the Eldar are way better than everyone else in the Galaxy."

The same is true for Orks, Tau, Necron and even the other Marines. Ward hyped the Ultramarines to hurr-tard levels, but even they aren't considered the best Marines, only the most affective as a chapter.

But on the other hand, it was Ward's specific intention to point out that the Grey Knights absolutely are the best of the best. At everything. If a single Space Marine can kill ten orks, a Grey Knight can kill a hundred. If a ten man force of Space Marines can dominate an entire xenos taskforce, a similar sized force of Knights can dominate an entire planet. The Grey Knights have the strongest warriors, the most powerful psyckers, the greatest strategists, the fastest ships and the best weapons and armor. They and they alone in the Imperium are completely uncorruptable against Chaos.

All codex's fellate their topical faction; all codex's have some form of statement to the kin of "If (faction) ever _____ then they would be unstoppable in the Galaxy!", but the GK codex dials it up to a level far higher than any other.

BlaxicanX wrote:It isn't really about it "just being a codex", though.

You don't read the Imperial Guard codex and come away from it thinking "Wow, the Guard are way better than everyone else in the Galaxy."

You don't read the Eldar/Dark Eldar codexes and come away from them thinking "Wow, the Eldar are way better than everyone else in the Galaxy."

I think you come away from Codex IG thinking that the IG are the backbone of the Imperium. That without them mankind would have crumbled long ago. That they are more important than any other single thing in the Imperium of Man.
Likewise I think you come away from the Eldar Codex believing in their superiority. That yes, if they had the numbers, they would be better than everyone else in the galaxy.

I don't think Grey Knights are considered the best at EVERYTHING. I think they are considered the best at killing Daemons and that is all. They are too few in number to stem the tide against the Xenos races and they are too valuable to do anything but fight Daemons.

Dunwich wrote:I think you come away from Codex IG thinking that the IG are the backbone of the Imperium. That without them mankind would have crumbled long ago. That they are more important than any other single thing in the Imperium of Man.

The IG codex specifically goes out of its way to point out that the competency of Guardsmen varies from "hyper elite, bring these guys out when the Space Marines fail" to "bumbling morons who trip over their own lasguns and get used as cannon fodder." The IG codex explicitly goes out of its way to point out that the Imperial Guard in its entirety relies completely on the Navy to get to warzones, and that without the Navy they would be screwed. No where is it stated nor implied in the Guard codex that they re the best at anything within the Imperium besides dying in droves.

Likewise I think you come away from the Eldar Codex believing in their superiority. That yes, if they had the numbers, they would be better than everyone else in the galaxy.

And they don't have the numbers, so that's irrelevant. Any faction "would be better than anyone else inthe galaxy" with "the numbers". Give the Tau one hundred million planets with which to draw resources and manpower, and they'd break their armored foot off in the Galaxy's ass. Fact of the matter is that the Eldar don't have the numbers, nor are individual Eldar all that strong. There is also literally dozens of entries across the various codex's that show Guardsmen and Eldar getting manhandled by other factions. How many codex entries can you think of that show Grey Knights suffering crushing defeats at the hands of another faction? List 'em.

The GK codex is simply in a league of its own. Ward's intention when writing it was clear: to show that the GK's are the most dominant in every field of warfare at everything and have no weaknesses and the only reason they aren't running the Galaxy is because there simply isn't enough of them.

McNinja wrote:I agree Bloodtide was dumb, but I've chosen to ignore that piece of fluff and replace it with something this isn't asinine.

Yeah, I hate the Bloodtide story too. But if it had to exist, I wished in was something more like this:

There power diminished by the foul warp enegies of the Bloodtide, the Grey Knights needed a talisman of protection. They happened upon the remnants of an assault force from the Order of the Ebon Chalice, held up within the walls of the once mighty Imperial Citadel. Through their faith they has survived the corrupting forces of chaos, but were too few in number to free the world from chaos. Realizing that only the Grey Knights had the martial power to fight back against chaos, the Sisters sacrificed their lives so their blood, pure and given in noble sacrifice, could be used to protect the GKs. The Grey Knights would march on to free the planet from the grip of chaos thanks to the sacrifice of the Sisters

Same basic story, but the Sisters sacrificed themselves instead of just getting killed so the GK could haz hats.

BlaxicanX wrote:Any faction "would be better than anyone else inthe galaxy" with "the numbers"...

BlaxicanX wrote:GK's are the most dominant in every field of warfare at everything and have no weaknesses and the only reason they aren't running the Galaxy is because there simply isn't enough of them.

So, GK are the same as every other faction then?

If you want to ignore the context of the thread, yes.

Whew. Alright, read through that article. And I'm once more puzzled why the Grey Knights seem to be the only army catching that much flak, aside from perhaps the Ultramarines.

Yes, there's definitively a game of "one-upmanship" going on. As is everywhere else in the franchise. Is it maybe just that for once the fans of "normal" Space Marine Chapters get a taste of how that feels like, when it's usually just the Imperial Guard or the SoB being played down by the constant emphasis about how oh-so-superior the mighty Astartes supposedly are? I have read the 5E Space Wolves Codex, and I have to say that to me, that one feels worse than the GK book, as far as the "special snowflake" syndrome is concerned. Yes, some stuff in the Grey Knights Codex could have definitively benefited from being toned down a notch, but I don't really see anything that is extraordinary for a Marine Codex in general.
The only thing that miffles me is the style change and how the Grey Knights were turned from shining paladins into employing sorcery and daemon weapons themselves. I don't like their new style - but that does not affect the level of catering in the Codex, which, as is pointed out in the blog, was already there in the previous version during 3E.

Also, two additional remarks:

Of course the Grey Knights will have easier access to top level equipment. They are directly supported by the Inquisition, just like the Deathwatch. The Inquisition speaks with the Emperor's authority, and as such it should not surprise that they can secure the very best gear for their operatives as well as the forces they command. The relative independence enjoyed by most Space Marine Chapters does not come with only advantages, who would have thought.

Lastly, as a SoB-player, I see no problem with the Bloodtide. First of all I will point out that I believe a lot of people are misinterpreting the "corrupted" Sisters. The way I read it, they didn't turn; they were tainted/infected by contact, and apparently it somehow affected their combat prowess, but they were not corrupted in the usual sense that it would have switched their allegiance. The line in the Codex tells us how those Sisters who were corrupted were slain by advancing Bloodletters, not turning on their fellow Sisters. Since "corrupted" is such a heavy-laden term in 40k (usually describing someone or something being turned to the service of Chaos), I will agree that a better choice of words might have done much to prevent the confusion. I have attached the quote at the end of this post.
And finally, I don't get what is supposed to be wrong (from reader perspective) about the GKs murdering a bunch of Sisters when that is what was deemed necessary by them. This is in no way a breach of the usual modus operandi of the Inquisition, and I'll even go as far as saying "well done", because it shows how ruthless these troops (or the Inquisition in general) can be. This isn't some kind of sci-fi candyland with a clearly defined moral line between Good vs Evil, this is the Imperium of Man and stuff like this happens all the time.

"On the morning of the ninth day, Sisters of Battle from the Order of the Ebon Chalice assault the basilica. Some Battle Sisters are corrupted on contact with the Bloodtide. Those who endure fight valiantly, but most are slaughtered by the Bloodletters atop the basilica walls."

As most people will notice, the top four codexes that get the most grief due to their fluff are the Space Marine codex, the GK codex, the Blood Angels codex and the Space Wolf codex. Codex's such as the Guard codex, DE codex, and Tyranid codex's get no such grief, and while the Necron codex gets complained about, the big issue with it is that the fluff was revamped, not the actual content of the fluff itself.

That should answer your question pretty well, I'd think. The pattern is a little hard to miss.

Whew. Alright, read through that article. And I'm once more puzzled why the Grey Knights seem to be the only army catching that much flak, aside from perhaps the Ultramarines.

My curiosity is "why did Ward say the GKs are the best only to also say that EVERY SPACE MARINE wants to be an Ultramarine?"

....Aren't we still having this same discussion in another thread?

Still excellent write up OP. Even if it instantly brought up the literary definition furball of what a Mary Sue is again.

Lets look at the definition of Mary Sue from Wikipedia.

A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in literary criticism and particularly in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfillment fantasy for the author or reader.

So the text highlighted in Green is spot on for Grey Knights. The one in red is a maybe. However it could be wish fulfillment for the reader who wants to be super elite deamon slayers. So yeah, Grey Knights are pretty much Sues by Wikipedia's definition.

however look at TV tropes page on Mary Sue

After you read it, there really is no set notion on what a mary sue is. Its all in the eye of the beholder.
So thats why Khaldor doesn't think they are Mary Sues, they don't fit his personal definition. On the other hand they fit alot of peoples image of a mary sue. Then on the gripping hand, people might think they met some qualities but not other of being a sue.

Other then that I did enjoy the article, and do agree with you. Space Marines in General need more humanization. More flaws, something with more substance then Super-Elite Super Soldiers.

DeffDred wrote:My curiosity is "why did Ward say the GKs are the best only to also say that EVERY SPACE MARINE wants to be an Ultramarine?"

Personal opinions, such as those given in interviews, do not have to reflect the stance of the design studio, such as that printed in books. Especially not if it was a joke (from what I've heard; like most people here, I've never bothered to research what actually happened).

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Space Marines in General need more humanization.

I'd use another term than that. I get what you (probably) meant, and I do think that a more balanced approach would improve their portrayal, but I wouldn't call it "humanisation" as Space Marines - at least to me - aren't supposed to be human but rather sacrifice that for essentially becoming the Emperor's living weapons.
"More humanisation", if interpreted in another way, would just result in even more Space Wolf shenanigans. >_>

First things first, I want to thank all of you guys for taking the time to read and think about the article. I really appreciate that.

I probably can't adequately respond to everyone individually, so I'll take a few points.

Mary Sue: the definition of Mary Sue I've used when talking about the Grey Knights is "overpowered, underchallenged character receiving special treatment from a setting that has no reason to give it". The Grey Knights are, in the facts given by the codices, grossly supercilious in design, and there's no reason they can't also be wish-fulfillment on the part of the author (in this case, I acknowledge that'd most likely be Ward, but again, he certainly doesn't deserve sole blame for any of this).

Humanisation of Space Marines: frankly, I do think "humanisation" is the term I'd use when discussing ways of improving upon them. Thinking of them only as biological weapons eliminates any character they might have, and that's quite dull. If that route must be taken, however, the only way to give the chapter a human face and spirit would be if they were all led by living Primarchs even into M41, letting the Primarch be their humanity while they themselves are pawns in the greater game of war.

Otherwise, making the Space Marines more human is probably the only way to make them actually interesting as characters. I cannot relate to a tactical-minded superhuman with no individuality, and if that's what Space Marines have to be in order to function, then I guess I just can't like them.

Further, I don't really buy into the whole "horrors that would break a lesser man" spiel; the only way the books can even talk about these is evasively, which doesn't make them seem like unspeakable horrors as simply unspoken ones-- there's no perspective. At least Call of Cthulhu gave a list of possible sanity-destroying events-- credible ones at that. In 40K, I have only the book's word that gazing unprotected into the Warp is sanity-blasting. When one looks into it, what does one see?

At any rate, I admit these are all just my own subjective impressions of things. I'm still finding new books to read and people to talk to about all this, and every now and then I find some new fragment that informs my opinions differently.

Thanks again to all of you (yes, even those that don't agree with me at all); I really do appreciate you taking a look and taking the time to reply.

I don't like Space Marines for they have no Character. However I do enjoy Graham McNeil's Ultramarines, his Marines have flaws, and personalities. Plus they make major mistakes and pretty much aren't Codex Space Marines Ultramarines.

Kaldor wrote:They are the personal standing army of the Inquisition, the most powerful organisation in the entire Imperium. Complaining about that is like reading a history book and complaining that Roman Praetorian Guards had the best equipment. Ordinary legionnaires were bad-ass enough, why would the Emperors use such obviously Mary Sue troops as bodyguards?

Fixed that for you. Also, Roman Praetorian guard were actually a bunch of crafty bastards, and helped stabilize the Empire and prevented a couple douchebag tyrants from being on the throne too long. They are also an actual force in history, not a figment of someones (rather wild) imagination. GK can be toned down, the Praetorian Guard cannot, because they are an actual thing that existed. As for the Emperor using Mary-Sues, he didn't. The Adeptus Custodes aren't Mary Sues, at least not that I know of. GK are, because even though they tend to murder planets, their codex still praises them as the best the Imperium has to offer and goes on and on about how incorruptible they are.

Anyone who did read "emperor's gift" knows that they are weaklings - comparing to wolves(How many GK did they lost?) ,but HELL of a lot stronger in fight with Demons...
And one thing bugs me - are they real servants to the inqusition or do they have a mind of they own !?
So basically they are special forces for demons only - nothing else,so if you had a ork problem -send BA and if you have a demon pest send GK...

McNinja wrote:

Kaldor wrote:They are the personal standing army of the Inquisition, the most powerful organisation in the entire Imperium. Complaining about that is like reading a history book and complaining that Roman Praetorian Guards had the best equipment. Ordinary legionnaires were bad-ass enough, why would the Emperors use such obviously Mary Sue troops as bodyguards?

Fixed that for you. Also, Roman Praetorian guard were actually a bunch of crafty bastards, and helped stabilize the Empire and prevented a couple douchebag tyrants from being on the throne too long. They are also an actual force in history, not a figment of someones (rather wild) imagination. GK can be toned down, the Praetorian Guard cannot, because they are an actual thing that existed. As for the Emperor using Mary-Sues, he didn't. The Adeptus Custodes aren't Mary Sues, at least not that I know of. GK are, because even though they tend to murder planets, their codex still praises them as the best the Imperium has to offer and goes on and on about how incorruptible they are.

Also the Praetorian Guard used the same weapons and armor as the rank and file Legions. They believe that the soldier inside was more important then the equipment.

Ixion wrote:Thinking of them only as biological weapons eliminates any character they might have, and that's quite dull. If that route must be taken, however, the only way to give the chapter a human face and spirit would be if they were all led by living Primarchs even into M41, letting the Primarch be their humanity while they themselves are pawns in the greater game of war. Otherwise, making the Space Marines more human is probably the only way to make them actually interesting as characters. I cannot relate to a tactical-minded superhuman with no individuality, and if that's what Space Marines have to be in order to function, then I guess I just can't like them.

As clarification to my previous post: personally, I believe there is some room for individuality - just that at the same time this room needs to remain severely limited, lest you'll end up with Brother John Smith from next door, just with power armour and superpowers. One of the reasons why I dislike the Space Wolves, actually - they don't seem to sacrifice anything, they're just "better" and still live perfectly normal Fenrisian lives. But the "warrior monk" mentality is, I think, an extremely important aspect of the Space Marine - their humanity a sort of "trade-off" for their superhuman augmentations and mind-steeling indoctrination. This kind of sacrifice is part of the Grimdarkness of the 41st millennium, and to me, necessary to retain the human face of the (already somewhat dehumanised) Imperial Guard. IG characters should always appear more individual and thus more human than Space Marines. Does that make SM characters potentially less interesting? Yes, I suppose that may be the case, but I believe this can be compensated with a good plot and a rich backstory, laced with some well-written battle action - no doubt at least as big a reason for readers to purchase such fiction as the character of the protagonists themselves.

A good author will find a good balance between this sacrifice of humanity and a character's individuality and manage to write interesting characters that do not offend the classical image of the Adeptus Astartes. I have little experience with Marine novels, but I do know that it is possible for the Sororitas, who (thanks to their own upbringing and lifestyle) suffer from the very same issue.

Lynata wrote:

Ixion wrote:Thinking of them only as biological weapons eliminates any character they might have, and that's quite dull. If that route must be taken, however, the only way to give the chapter a human face and spirit would be if they were all led by living Primarchs even into M41, letting the Primarch be their humanity while they themselves are pawns in the greater game of war. Otherwise, making the Space Marines more human is probably the only way to make them actually interesting as characters. I cannot relate to a tactical-minded superhuman with no individuality, and if that's what Space Marines have to be in order to function, then I guess I just can't like them.

As clarification to my previous post: personally, I believe there is some room for individuality - just that at the same time this room needs to remain severely limited, lest you'll end up with Brother John Smith from next door, just with power armour and superpowers. One of the reasons why I dislike the Space Wolves, actually - they don't seem to sacrifice anything, they're just "better" and still live perfectly normal Fenrisian lives. But the "warrior monk" mentality is, I think, an extremely important aspect of the Space Marine - their humanity a sort of "trade-off" for their superhuman augmentations and mind-steeling indoctrination. This kind of sacrifice is part of the Grimdarkness of the 41st millennium, and to me, necessary to retain the human face of the (already somewhat dehumanised) Imperial Guard. IG characters should always appear more individual and thus more human than Space Marines. Does that make SM characters potentially less interesting? Yes, I suppose that may be the case, but I believe this can be compensated with a good plot and a rich backstory, laced with some well-written battle action - no doubt at least as big a reason for readers to purchase such fiction as the character of the protagonists themselves.

A good author will find a good balance between this sacrifice of humanity and a character's individuality and manage to write interesting characters that do not offend the classical image of the Adeptus Astartes. I have little experience with Marine novels, but I do know that it is possible for the Sororitas, who (thanks to their own upbringing and lifestyle) suffer from the very same issue.

then ADB did a really good job putting them down...on earth of course,btw when you have red EmpGift you know that they are no "Mary Sue" and have grand weakneses

Ixion wrote:Mary Sue: the definition of Mary Sue I've used when talking about the Grey Knights is "overpowered, underchallenged character receiving special treatment from a setting that has no reason to give it".

Then you're wrong on just about every count. Every setting has the 'household guard' The elite of the elite, the SAS, the Praetorian guard, the Housecarls. The Grey Knights are those guys. The personal servants of the Inquisition, who are the most powerful organisation in the Imperium (which in turn makes them the most powerful organisation in the galaxy).

McNinja wrote:They are also an actual force in history, not a figment of someones (rather wild) imagination. GK can be toned down, the Praetorian Guard cannot, because they are an actual thing that existed.

That's rather the point. They are the elite troops sponsored by, and answerable only to, the highest authority in the Imperium. Of course it makes sense that they have access to the best equipment the Imperium has to offer. All throughout history, the elite forces of the super-powerful authority figures had the best equipment available. Because that's what makes sense.

You don't give them sub-par equipment because otherwise they'll be too good. That'd be stupid. And if you're creating a fictional equivalent, it would be stupid to give them sub-par equipment just because that'd make them too good. Instead, you think of other reasons to keep them interesting, like the GW team has done. You limit their scope, you limit their role, you give them restrictions to work around. Like the GK lack access to any of the more conventional options Marines have, like Predators, Vindicators, heavy weapons, scouts, Dreadnought variants, Stormtalons, bikes, landspeeders, and so on.

McNinja wrote:GK are (mary sues), because even though they tend to murder planets, their codex still praises them as the best the Imperium has to offer and goes on and on about how incorruptible they are.

But they are the best the Imperium has to offer, as far as Daemon hunters go. They're certainly not the best at line warfare, space warfare, siege warfare, or many of the other myriad types of confrontation the Imperium routinely finds itself in. They're not Mary Sue. They're not even over powered or under challenged, except in their niche role of Daemon hunting, and their hardline stance and total disregard for life or resources adds a nice 'edge' to their character as a whole.

Well don't be angry but thats a big fan based point of view...
I was an admiring them unil I have read Emperor's Gift, bamf -how many died again (in the civil war) and like I said ADB realy put them down...
Agree with you ,best the Imperium has to offer, as far as Daemon hunters go(elite of elites and that staff) - yes(only that)...but also hypocrites (like the Inqusition) more loyal to the "I" then to Adeptus Astartes...



and if they show themself with Inqusition near Fenris,badabing,bye,bye Kaldor Draigo

Kaldor wrote:

McNinja wrote:GK are (mary sues), because even though they tend to murder planets, their codex still praises them as the best the Imperium has to offer and goes on and on about how incorruptible they are.

But they are the best the Imperium has to offer, as far as Daemon hunters go. They're certainly not the best at line warfare, space warfare, siege warfare, or many of the other myriad types of confrontation the Imperium routinely finds itself in. They're not Mary Sue. They're not even over powered or under challenged, except in their niche role of Daemon hunting, and their hardline stance and total disregard for life or resources adds a nice 'edge' to their character as a whole.

Well, it certainly adds an "edge" but it isn't a very nice one. Something doesn't have to be the best at everything to be a Mary Sue.

I'll agree that if you look hard at what the GK are supposed to do and be good at, they are not Mary Sues. They are built for fighting daemons, and their "flaw" of murdering people for having seen a daemon is rather large. However, they do not come across that way in the codex fluff or the TT. I know that each codex put that army on a pedestal, but come on. You can only say how incorruptible something is before it becomes annoying and it starts to come across as trying too hard.

In fact, that's actually the reason GK are considered Mary Sues; the C: GK authors tried too hard. They tried too hard to make the GK seem awesome, and it backfired, because if you tell people what they should think of any given thing, they'll probably be that much more against it if they disagree in the slightest, or are simply neutral about it. The way the GK codex comes off isn't just that they're the best in the Imperium, but it goes too far in making the GK seem superior to pretty much everything else. They have counters to everything any other army has, and the people who also play those armies really don't like being told how much better one army is than another, even in their own codex. Sure, battles can be fought and won in that army's favor, but the degree to which the GK codex does this is simply too much.

DatrhMarko wrote:Well don't be angry but thats a big fan based point of view...

Doesn't that apply to just about every post on this forum?
People tend to forgive stuff for their own favourite faction more easily, just as much as they over-criticize things of a faction that they do not like (for whatever reason ... them being at odds with one's favourite is just one example).

DatrhMarko wrote:but also hypocrites (like the Inqusition) more loyal to the "I" then to Adeptus Astartes...

To me, that actually makes them more bearable. Close adherence to an established chain of command ("being on a leash", if you will) is a flaw that offsets some of their perks. A weakness to balance their strengths. And from a slightly more in-setting point of view, I'd also say that this sort of reliability distinguishes them as a proper Imperial force. The Adeptus Astartes were created to serve mankind, whose greatest hope continues to be the Imperium as currently administered by the High Lords of Terra. That many Chapters prefer to forsake their ties to Terra in a streak of rebellious egoism and invoke their rights of relative independence, that is what *I* would call hypocrisy. It's an interesting part of the background, however, so I'd never wish to see it gone entirely. Proper consequences for extreme cases of isolationism would make for better consistency, though.

That's were we disagree my Italian friend...what of Inqusition?They are needed I'know,but to put so much control in their hands(I' thinkt they need like codex astartes thingy also)!?
Hm...let see if the big E was healty ,would he alllow existance of that organization and would he allow fanatic chapters(prehersy wordbeares)?I'm allways wondering why the adeptus astartes(especialy first founding chapters who served with E) still tolerate that....
AlI I' know that the wolves(without my fanboy crap)don't let them in their space...

DatrhMarko wrote:my Italian friend

Ireland, actually - but no hard feelings, iirc Italy has the same colours in reverse.

DatrhMarko wrote:Hm...let see if the big E was healty ,would he alllow existance of that organization and would he allow fanatic chapters(prehersy wordbeares)?

The Emperor has established the Inquisition Himself, so I suppose He wouldn't have a problem with it. The Inquisition is basically the Emperor's Secret Police currently running wild because it doesn't have a boss anymore. They still try doing their job, but the only oversight they have is each other. Frankly, I'm somewhat surprised the Inquisition did not mess everything up already, considering there's a lot of internal rivalry going on. In the grand scheme of things, they still seem to be doing more good than harm, though, much like the Space Marines. Perhaps the Imperium just got lucky so far.
As for fanatic Chapters, are you referring to something like the Black Templars? Or do you mean fanatism as in following religion, like the Word Bearers tried to? Because if so, that wasn't what I was getting at in the slightest. You don't have to be religious to be loyal and helpful, after all. Some Marine Chapters understand this better than others. The Ultramarines deserve credit for their reliability, too, for example.

DatrhMarko wrote:I'm allways wondering why the adeptus astartes(especialy first founding chapters who served with E) still tolerate that....

I suppose because they don't have much of a choice. Unless they'd want to drag the Imperium into a second Horus Heresy and possibly bear responsibility for crippling mankind's defenses against the Xenos and the enemies from beyond the Veil - in addition to being unlikely to succeed in such a bid. Even if they'd manage to kill the High Lords (which I'd deem possible), it would (a) cost a huge amount of casualties on both sides and (b) would not end the war, unless you assume that the Imperium as a whole would simply accept an outsider with no political connections (one of the drawbacks of the aforementioned independence) simply usurping leadership by force.
Lastly, I'm going to assume that many of First Founding Chapters respect the words and thoughts of Guilliman concerning the compromise he made in the name of the future of the Imperium.

Lynata wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:my Italian friend

Ireland, actually - but no hard feelings, iirc Italy has the same colours in reverse.

DatrhMarko wrote:Hm...let see if the big E was healty ,would he alllow existance of that organization and would he allow fanatic chapters(prehersy wordbeares)?

The Emperor has established the Inquisition Himself, so I suppose He wouldn't have a problem with it. The Inquisition is basically the Emperor's Secret Police currently running wild because it doesn't have a boss anymore. They still try doing their job, but the only oversight they have is each other. Frankly, I'm somewhat surprised the Inquisition did not mess everything up already, considering there's a lot of internal rivalry going on. In the grand scheme of things, they still seem to be doing more good than harm, though, much like the Space Marines. Perhaps the Imperium just got lucky so far.
As for fanatic Chapters, are you referring to something like the Black Templars? Or do you mean fanatism as in following religion, like the Word Bearers tried to? Because if so, that wasn't what I was getting at in the slightest. You don't have to be religious to be loyal and helpful, after all. Some Marine Chapters understand this better than others. The Ultramarines deserve credit for their reliability, too, for example.

DatrhMarko wrote:I'm allways wondering why the adeptus astartes(especialy first founding chapters who served with E) still tolerate that....

I suppose because they don't have much of a choice. Unless they'd want to drag the Imperium into a second Horus Heresy and possibly bear responsibility for crippling mankind's defenses against the Xenos and the enemies from beyond the Veil - in addition to being unlikely to succeed in such a bid. Even if they'd manage to kill the High Lords (which I'd deem possible), it would (a) cost a huge amount of casualties on both sides and (b) would not end the war, unless you assume that the Imperium as a whole would simply accept an outsider with no political connections (one of the drawbacks of the aforementioned independence) simply usurping leadership by force.
Lastly, I'm going to assume that many of First Founding Chapters respect the words and thoughts of Guilliman concerning the compromise he made in the name of the future of the Imperium.

Sorry the green on a flag isn't irish green and I had a few ones:-)but I'still stand what I've said and I 'mean religius chapters- religius(WB way),why the hell are they still refering to GOD emperor and not just the emperor?? You've seen how Bjorn was pissed when the inquisition called him a god...where is emperors legacy?I' think Malcador formed a Inquisition (on E order ofc),but Emperor didn't have anything with them and " I" reffering Emp as a GOD is evidence that E didn't have much with them,IMHO