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Soo I am kind of haveing a slight dilemma trying to decide which one to use honor guard or assault terminator's I really like using Calgar as my HQ choice for my 2500 point list but always find my self wondering which to bring the Honor guard or the assault terminators as my hard hitting assault unit both would be accompanied by calgar and be put in a land raider, but I just don't know which is better so I figured i would ask the dakka community to see what you all say.

Assault terminators, by far.

Honor guard aren't terrible, now that they can survive power sword attacks, but without ap2 close combat weapons, they can't pack the punch required to kill 2+ armor save units.

Terminators.

Termies win..

Horst wrote:Honor guard aren't terrible, now that they can survive power sword attacks, but without ap2 close combat weapons, they can't pack the punch required to kill 2+ armor save units.

but the honor guard do have a ap2 stuff you just have to model them with axes right then you have the ap2 punch, unless i am mistaken.

And you don't even have to do the modelling. IIRC, two have axes, one has a banner and the last has a sword (from the Calagar + HG box set)

ah, good point. However, consider this then... you need to take a chapter master in order to take honor guard.

Chapter masters are overpriced garbage :(

so are captains. The only legit choice in codex marines are special characters who aren't chapter masters, or vanilla librarians / maybe chaplains.

So, you could get 5x honor guard and a chapter master, OR a squad of assault terminators for half the cost. I'll go with the assault terminators.

Horst wrote:so are captains. The only legit choice in codex marines are special characters who aren't chapter masters, or vanilla librarians / maybe chaplains.

Marneus Calgar and Pedro Kantor are the only two Chapter Master SCs, and they're both viable. I don't see the problem.

I'd go with termies aswell.

IF you give honour guard the charge, and give 5 of them axes, they'll beat the same points of assault terminators, if they're half LCx2 and half TH/SS.

After that, it all comes down to load out.

If you do all axes against all TH/SS, at same points, 1 or 2 honour guard walk away (if they get the charge), so its not cut and dried termies.

It really depends on what you want to do with them. Most peopme will tell you hammernators all day every day and you wouldn't be gandicapping yourself in the slightest by listening to them. I would advise you looking at what kind of armies you will be facing.

Lots of AP 2 firepower or ccw's then stick with hammernators. Want a squad that can take on the enemies uber cc unit? Hammernators win again.

Honour Guard are a different animal. They're good in all phases of the game but they pay a hefty cost for it. Giving them a grenade launcher will give them a rediculous amount of short range firepower and they have the cc power to wreck any survivors. Also I think the champion would be better in a challenge than a termie sergeant. Things to avoid would be 2+ save units and anything AP2.

My opinion is that if you have a really diverse meta and your list is very tactically flexible, Honour Guard can work. Any other time you won't be disappointed by sticking with termies.



Side note: If an Honour Guard with grenade launcher gets assaulted, can he overwatch with his bolter and a krak grenade? Because that would pretty much ensure that nobody wants to assault you.

CrowSplat wrote:Side note: If an Honour Guard with grenade launcher gets assaulted, can he overwatch with his bolter and a krak grenade? Because that would pretty much ensure that nobody wants to assault you.

Nothing in the BRB saying you can't overwatch with krak grenades but you couldn't use the model's other weapon. Have to choose krak or gun.

Damn.. Just had the thought but I'm at work and dodn't have my rulebook to see if it specified only one weapon.

Bolter would probably be the way to go in most cases then.

Of course you can use the Aux grenade launcher and his other weapon. The grenade launcher says you can shoot it in addition to other weapons. Overwatch is normal shooting aside from being Snap Shots.

The problem with the Honor Guard is that you need to equip them with Axes and a Thunder hammer to have the same effect as Assault Terminators, and that will usually run you more points than the Assault Terminators will. Relic Blades (which should be AP2, because +2 S is not worth the cost) are 15 points a pop, and that isn't cheap when you have five (or more) guys to kit out.

And after all of that you still don't have the Invuln saves. Not a single Storm Shield or 5+ save to be found.

Well, the Axes are free with their cost as they come with Power Weapons.

I do agree they need to come with more equipment or be alot cheaper. 30 points each at the current loadout would be fine IMO.

I dunno, 51 power weapon attacks on the charge is probably about what 400 points should get you.

OP: If you aren't a troll, don't walk away from this thread thinking honour guard are a viable alternative to assault termies, they're really not. Here we have perhaps the greatest beaters in the game compared to a joke unit that probably only GW would use.

Why THSS termies are better than honour guard:
-They have thunder hammers. S8 and tough enough that i1 doesn't matter.
-They have storm shields. The elephant in the room - this is why it's really not even a contest.
-You'll eventually realize how much calgar sucks and then you're stuck with defunct HG models.

There is a single thing that HG can do that termies can't, and that is to take a drop pod. They're still a bunch of expensive dudes without invul saves so they'll die when they get out, but fact is that C:SM termies can't deep strike on t1. I'm not saying honour guard are so completely useless that you'll lose every time if you take them, but you are at least 400% better off just taking the termies.

Frankly this is about as cut and dry as unit comparisons go. It's like asking which is better on a sandwich - ham or a turd.

Almarine wrote:OP: If you aren't a troll, don't walk away from this thread thinking honour guard are a viable alternative to assault termies, they're really not. Here we have perhaps the greatest beaters in the game compared to a joke unit that probably only GW would use.

Why THSS termies are better than honour guard:
-They have thunder hammers. S8 and tough enough that i1 doesn't matter.
-They have storm shields. The elephant in the room - this is why it's really not even a contest.
-You'll eventually realize how much calgar sucks and then you're stuck with defunct HG models.

There is a single thing that HG can do that termies can't, and that is to take a drop pod. They're still a bunch of expensive dudes without invul saves so they'll die when they get out, but fact is that C:SM termies can't deep strike on t1. I'm not saying honour guard are so completely useless that you'll lose every time if you take them, but you are at least 400% better off just taking the termies.

Frankly this is about as cut and dry as unit comparisons go. It's like asking which is better on a sandwich - ham or a turd.

Actually the entire question is fundamentally flawed. A more apt comparison would be asking what the best racecar is between a top fuel dragster and a monster truck. Both have very different applications and function differently on a fundamental level.

Also there is one other thing that HG can do that hammernators cannot. Shooting. Sure those termies are going to rearrange someones face in cc but what are they going to do when they aren't in combat anymore? Get shot or get ignored/avoided. At least if HG find themselves out of assault range they can throw iut some 24" shots. And if you get real crazy and give them the aux grenade launchers they can threaten hordes in a way TH/SS termies can only dream of. Of course by then you're paying 10 points more per model than said terminators but you do have a more flexible unit.

It should be noted that I do agree with most everyone that assault terminators are the better decision 99% of the time. I am just pointing out that comparing the two based solely on hth ability is incredibly biased and does not tell the whole story.

As others have said, I'm not saying HG are better, but some more to consider.

HG can sweep (I usually get one sweep a game with HG)
HG in a pod won't take DS mishaps (which will show up a lot in 6e with the more dense maps)
HG can assault through terrain at full init.
HG can ride in more transports (and you can put 10 in a LR)
HG can combat squad out of a DP or LR

In my larger games I'm starting to run 2 sternguard, 1 TH/SS squad, HG and Pedro.

Right now the HG are killing way more points than the Termies (who are still earning their points back, most games).

I actually prefer to use Honour Guard, squad of ten with all axes, bar the standard and champion, pile them all in a Crusader with Calgar and you can have a pretty meaty assault unit there. Plus they have guns if you need them, guns are good.

CrowSplat wrote:Actually the entire question is fundamentally flawed. A more apt comparison would be asking what the best racecar is between a top fuel dragster and a monster truck. Both have very different applications and function differently on a fundamental level.

Except they have the same function: kill stuff in assault. Just because they have bolters doesn't make HG shooty, especially not with their unit size. The GL is pretty crap as well for the same reason, there's too few and despite what people say s6 is actually pretty crap against vehicles unless you get it in volume and cheap. I'm thinking maybe you're mistaking their auxiliary GL with the astartes GL that scout bikers can take, which has rapid fire so you can lay down some shots.

In fact, I would go so far as to say hammernators are better than HG at shooting. Not because they can shoot, but because they absorb firepower that would otherwise go into your tanks. HG with ther 2+ do this also to a degree, but with no invul it's not so much absorbing as dying.

As lobukia says, there are some things that HG can do that THSS can't. Podding is the main thing but since you can't assault on the same turn, it's only a good idea when there's nothing around to clean your clock right away. Only when you're dropping against units that can't shoot you dead and don't take the advantage by assaulting you, is it a valid tactic. So against long fangs or artillery and things like that that any old tacmarines can do while scoring.

@Sir Samuel Buca: 10HG in a land raider with calgar doesn't function as a deathstar because while the unit can dish out some damage, it can't take any. Nearly everything loses to its own points in hammernators so that's not really a valid argument, but consider the amount of vindicators and demolishers we're likely to start seeing from now on. Not to mention plasma.

I don't think you understood what I was saying. Even if they have the same function, they still function differently. Same way as a bicycle and an airplane have the same basic function but function differently.

I never said HG were shooty. I said that they could shoot. Which is something that assault terminators cannot do. I would contend that hammernators ability to soak firepower does not make them better at shooting because the only two outcomes are you don't lose anything or you get unlucky and take casualties. Neither of which has inflicted any damage on the enemy, which IS what you're trying to do right?

And I was referring to the forrect grenade launcher before. And I never said anything about firing at vehicles. If we're goung to have a discusion about combat capability we have to consider all the ways a unit can inflict damage. The aux grenade launcher is a great way to soften up your target before the charge and further tip the odds in your favor . Even better you can pick between a S6 single shot for meq and the like or you can go with a S3 blast for weaker targets.

The bottom line is that HG should not be charging the same things hammernators do. If you are trying to charge teq with HG then you are doing it wrong. I think the best use for them is to think of them more like weak sternguard with power weapons to mop up whats left over. And even then they need to be in a list that is built to support them.

I find it funny that, given how expensive HG squads are, that Marneus Calgar can take three.

I agree with CrowSplat. You charge AP2 with Assault Terminators, you charge everything else with HG (or Assault terminators with LCs). HG can shoot then assault, which is an added bonus, adding more attacks to their, what, 50 or so attacks on the charge?

CrowSplat wrote:I never said HG were shooty. I said that they could shoot. Which is something that assault terminators cannot do. I would contend that hammernators ability to soak firepower does not make them better at shooting because the only two outcomes are you don't lose anything or you get unlucky and take casualties. Neither of which has inflicted any damage on the enemy, which IS what you're trying to do right?

Inflicting damage on the enemy is important, but usually not for its own sake. The game is won on objectives in 5/6 cases. Shooting is primarily a way to reduce damage to your forces so they can go about their business. In this regard, the terminators trump HG by dispersing firepower that would otherwise go into your tanks/speeders/marines which in my mind makes them better at "shooting". Admittedly HG do the job as well against small arms but that's small comfort when they cost the same.

CrowSplat wrote:I was referring to the correct grenade launcher before. And I never said anything about firing at vehicles. If we're goung to have a discusion about combat capability we have to consider all the ways a unit can inflict damage. The aux grenade launcher is a great way to soften up your target before the charge and further tip the odds in your favor . Even better you can pick between a S6 single shot for meq and the like or you can go with a S3 blast for weaker targets.

Well, here we have a difference of opinion. You say it's a great way to soften up targets before a charge while I think it's a great way to fail on charge range, especially with the new random 2d6. That's down to preference and luck really, I have crap luck so don't like to gamble on stuff like that. I'll add that hammernators don't really need to soften up targets anyway because they can handle the overwhelming majority of units without 5 s3 blasts to maybe cause two kills on meq if they're spaced poorly.

CrowSplat wrote:The bottom line is that HG should not be charging the same things hammernators do. If you are trying to charge teq with HG then you are doing it wrong. I think the best use for them is to think of them more like weak sternguard with power weapons to mop up whats left over. And even then they need to be in a list that is built to support them.

The bottom line is that the termies can charge everything the HG can and be as good or better at killing it, while HG can't soak AT fire or plasma, reliably kill MCs or dreads, and can't ID t4.

Almarine wrote:
The bottom line is that the termies can charge everything the HG can and be as good or better at killing it, while HG can't soak AT fire or plasma, reliably kill MCs or dreads, and can't ID t4.
It seems like we both know that most units *can* work in a list that is built around them. There's a big difference between that and hammernators. I'm just being honest here because I don't think anything else would be fair to OP.

This pretty much hits the nail on the head.

Every time I look at the HG entry in the codex I feel like the designer tried to make them somewhere between assault terminators and sternguard. They just run into the same problem that similar units in every codex have. It's just more point efficient to specialize and there are more specialized units you can use for fewer points.

And it was in the spirit of fairness to the op that I felt I should offer up a defense for Honour Guard. Most reponses to these types of questions are usually from an ultra competitive, almost waac-like, standpoint. A view from which assault termies are the clear winner.

I was just trying to play a little devil's advocate and point out that for some people with certain playstyles and pretty specific lists, honour guard can be a viable-ish (yeah I just made up a word, so what) option.

In the end, I will continue to run my termies in tournaments but after this thread I will be converting up an Honour Guard squad for some fun games.

Yeah I get it, just if I came here with a bias towards HG and asked which were better and people said they were alright, I'd probably build a bunch and be pretty pissed/sad when I realized they're pretty crap.

So yeah OP, definitely take termies is my opinion. But then I like to win and would scrap calgar in a heartbeat as well. If you think HG are just extremely cool and want to run them anyway, my advice is to play some space hulk. Most people can dig termies and it would just make the game easier for you in the end.

Termies are better simply because they can take on most armies elite assault units and come out in good shape honor guard may win against many of these units but they will find it harder to get here and they will cost you more to make them as resilient as TH/SS terms.