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I was wondering if there have been examples in the fluff of pieces of the Imperium (SM chapters, Guard legions, anarcho-syndicalist communes) separating from the Imperium without becoming some flavor of Chaos worshipers. If I recall correctly sometimes human worlds join or are taken by the Tau empire; this isn't quite what I'm looking for. They do not need to enter into warfare against the Imperium (although in general the Imperium is going to come knocking with big guns whether they're welcome or not) but even a simple (successful) secession would be sufficient.

The Red Corsairs would have fit the bill nicely, except for the whole 'Oh nos! Hurt! I can haz Chaos?!?' nonsense with Huron.

Yes. The rebels in the book Traitor Winter were non-Chaos rebels.

In fact, most civilian rebellions are non-Chaos. Many military traitors worship Chaos, but I'm sure not all of them do.

Also, few non-Chaos secessions are successful.

The Sons of Malice sprung to mind, as I read they simply fought both against the Imperium as well as against Chaos after their excommunication - but apparently they've allied with Abbadon during the 13th Black Crusade, though I'm not entirely sure whether this was simply an alliance of convenience (possibly) or whether they started to get turned in a similar way like the many of the original Legions during the Horus Heresy (switching from Loyalist to Chaos Worshipper usually isn't throwing a switch but rather something that happens gradually).

From non-GW fluff, I remember a Governor Malachai Voss in an adventure for FFG's Dark Heresy RPG seceding from the Imperium because the Administratum decided to increase taxation to a level where it would cripple both the economy as well as the ecology of his flourishing world, so he basically just wanted to save his planet and his people (apparently naively believing he'd have an inkling of a chance against Imperial retribution). Not quite sure from which book that was from, however ... was it Ascension?

DOOMBREAD wrote:In fact, most civilian rebellions are non-Chaos. Many military traitors worship Chaos, but I'm sure not all of them do.

Also, few non-Chaos secessions are successful.

But when they work, they really work.

Look at the Horus Heresy, the Babab War and the Siege of Vraks for example.

LoneLictor wrote:Look at the Horus Heresy, the Babab War and the Siege of Vraks for example.

How are the Horus Heresy and the Siege of Vraks examples for either non-Chaos rebellions or successful ones? >_>

The Night Lords don't worship chaos.

Lynata wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:Look at the Horus Heresy, the Babab War and the Siege of Vraks for example.

How are the Horus Heresy and the Siege of Vraks examples for either non-Chaos rebellions or successful ones? >_>

Misread the post I was quoting while sleep deprived.

Apologies for the inconvenience.

No worries, I know how that feels like.

Huron and his Red Corsairs.

Hmm, turns out the Red Corsairs seem to have turned to Chaos as well, though I suppose it's debatable whether the "seed" for this was already present when the Chapter was still known as the Astral Claws. Could be mirroring the Horus Heresy in that.

Badab War stands as the biggest non-Chaos rebellion. The Astral Claws & allies never fell to Chaos, and the Red Corsairs only did (partially) because of Huron's pact with the Chaos Gods in exchange for power after his injury. Even today the Red Corsairs pay the Gods only lip service at best.

But there are tidbits here and there throughout fluff as non-chaos rebellions and secessionist movements. They're probably the most common war the Imperium fights (and easiest as well I imagine), but they're not very exciting despite the moral ambiguity it could bring. I'd be interesting to see a secessionist explain completely rationally why it's better if his world is not part of the Imperium, without any FOR THE DARK GODS tainting it.

Night Lords, Alpha Legion, and Iron Warriors are relatively non-Chaosy traitor legions. Knights of Blood are considered traitors, but still showed up to defend Baal. Not sure what their position is relative to skulls and thrones thereof. Flesh Tearers were borderline on getting themselves listed as traitors, but they changed strategies, so that doesn't seem to be on the table at the moment.

Problem with getting non-chaos traitors is that once you turn from the Imperium, your only real options for a home base or even getting repairs if you're fleet based tend to be located in warp storms, the Eye or Terror or the Maelstorm for example.

The Soul Drinkers initial succession was not chaos inspired. They briefly fell into a chaos trap afterward, but eventually fought against both chaos and the Imperium.

Harriticus wrote:Badab War stands as the biggest non-Chaos rebellion. The Astral Claws & allies never fell to Chaos, and the Red Corsairs only did (partially) because of Huron's pact with the Chaos Gods in exchange for power after his injury. Even today the Red Corsairs pay the Gods only lip service at best.

Isn't it somewhat like a mirror situation to the HH, though? Loyalists turning against the Imperium, Marine fighting Marine, and in the end their boss throws in their lot with the powers of Chaos and they start putting eight-spoked stars on their armour.

Hence the thought that the seed was already planet even before the conflict. Mind you, I'm not at all certain of this, but I wouldn't just brush the suspicion away either. I suppose the biggest problem is that it's nigh impossible to determine what is Chaos taking root and what is nothing but a conscious choice made with a lucid mind. The secessionists sporting Chaos emblems a short time after their rebellion may hint to the former - but it doesn't have to.
Basically, it's somewhat difficult to discern between Chaos influencing the agitator ... or simply "standing by" and supporting him later on to keep the fires alight.

Still, from what I remember the Astral Claws never quite engaged in the same behaviour as the Traitor Legions at the height of the Heresy, so you're probably right that their link to Chaos only came later.

I have to say that I firmly believe that it's much more than "lip service", though. Look at Huron's official mini and tell me you don't see him sweating corruption out of every pore of his twisted body.

Well, and let's not forget almost the entirety of the Age of Apostasy. It may have ended with some chaos rushing in to loot the remains, but it started as a civil war within the Ecclesiarchy that caused a split in the Imperium over religious and administrative lines. Not because a bunch of people went over to chaos all the sudden.

Plus, there are plenty of petty warlords that declare independence from the Imperium all the time. Usually it's nothing more than a power grab, rather than a full-fledged lurch into Chaos.

Lynata wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Badab War stands as the biggest non-Chaos rebellion. The Astral Claws & allies never fell to Chaos, and the Red Corsairs only did (partially) because of Huron's pact with the Chaos Gods in exchange for power after his injury. Even today the Red Corsairs pay the Gods only lip service at best.

Isn't it somewhat like a mirror situation to the HH, though? Loyalists turning against the Imperium, Marine fighting Marine, and in the end their boss throws in their lot with the powers of Chaos and they start putting eight-spoked stars on their armour.

Hence the thought that the seed was already planet even before the conflict. Mind you, I'm not at all certain of this, but I wouldn't just brush the suspicion away either. I suppose the biggest problem is that it's nigh impossible to determine what is Chaos taking root and what is nothing but a conscious choice made with a lucid mind. The secessionists sporting Chaos emblems a short time after their rebellion may hint to the former - but it doesn't have to.
Basically, it's somewhat difficult to discern between Chaos influencing the agitator ... or simply "standing by" and supporting him later on to keep the fires alight.

Still, from what I remember the Astral Claws never quite engaged in the same behaviour as the Traitor Legions at the height of the Heresy, so you're probably right that their link to Chaos only came later.

I have to say that I firmly believe that it's much more than "lip service", though. Look at Huron's official mini and tell me you don't see him sweating corruption out of every pore of his twisted body.

Not really all that similar, Horus Heresy was more or less started by those devoted to Chaos (Kor Phaeron/Erebus/Lorgar) and Horus fell to Chaos gradually throughout the conflict. Really among the traitors only Konrad Curze and maybe Alpharius (who knows) remained free from Chaos' touch at the end of the war.

You had Daemons, Bloodthirsters, etc. all taking part in battles on the side of the traitors by the end of the conflict. Considering the whole thing was initiated by Chaos on top of this, I consider it a Chaos rebellion.

Harriticus wrote:Not really all that similar, Horus Heresy was more or less started by those devoted to Chaos (Kor Phaeron/Erebus/Lorgar) and Horus fell to Chaos gradually throughout the conflict.

That's what I meant, about Horus. Just replace him with Huron. People don't just "switch" to Chaos (I think), they are tempted and twisted over time, and I'm still somewhat sceptical regarding Huron's motif for secession. He had his reasons, but how did he get to them, and what was it that made him forsake his vows to Terra and the Emperor? When a Marine Chapter goes traitor, it's different from some governor planning to secede because he wants the planet's riches for himself. The Marines tend to live an ascetic lifestyle focused on service, so when they start becoming egoists there is a sort of corruption going on. The question left is the nature of this corruption ...

Or perhaps even the nature of Chaos. Is it a tangible force, or rather just an idea? Maybe that'd get way too philosophical, though.

As for the Apostasy, I'm actually not entirely sure whether Vandire was just insane or corrupted as well. The bits mentioning how he started to avoid light and have entire sections of the palace put to darkness made me pause.
Again, no evidence, just suspicion. But maybe that's just the Battle Sister in me seeing things.

Heh.

In any case, even if the leader happened to have chaos leanings, it doesn't mean that everybody else did. Undoubtedly, most of the age of apostasy was imperial governors who genuinely believed they were doing the right thing by following their priests, who genuinely believed they were doing the right thing.

The black crusades may be "WOO! CHAOS!", but, even if there are seeds of chaos elsewhere, that doesn't mean that everybody is on board. For comparison, only a couple of percent of German people in the 30's and 40's were Nazis. Most soldiers who fought did so because they felt it was the right thing to do, rather than because of an active passion for Nazi ideology.

I imagine that most treasons are likewise, as far as the rebellion against the imperium is concerned.

Anything dealing with the Red Corsairs and Chaos past Huron Blackheart is likely a ret-con, though I haven't read any of the new stuff. Originally, the Red Corsairs were pirates made from several Chapters' renegades who hated how the Imperium ran things, but they didn't turn to the Chaos powers, they simply wanted do do whatever they wanted.

If i remember right, even back then Huron wasn't a thrall of Chaos. He simply had extensive bionics and an alien pet that protected him from harm.