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kaptin_Blacksquigg wrote:

 EverlastingNewb wrote:
He also didn't knew that the Maulerfiends could advance & charge.

If only, alas Maulers aren't effected by chapter traits :(

They get it from the allied Slaaneshi characters and their Daemonic Loci. Give your Maulerfiends MoS and now they have the required <Slaanesh> and <Daemon> keywords. The Renegades Legion Trait is just their for the infantry.

So, does anyone use forgeworld Kharibda droppods? They look awesome.

 koooaei wrote:
So, does anyone use forgeworld Kharibda droppods? They look awesome.

Totally worthless after the point increase in CA last winter, made even more worthless after the deep strike nerf and EVEN EVEN more worthless because you can't warptime it or it's occupants out the bat anymore.

Maybe good if you're using it to hide a good chunk of your shooting army and can hide the other half of your shooty army on the board till they arrive. I'm hoping CA comes along and fixes them somehow or gives World Eaters a reason to use them again.

I've definitely had better luck Deep Striking ranged units than melee units. I've had good experiences loading up a squad of Noise Marines in a Dread Claw. Gives them a lot of flexibility in terms of deployment, especially against armies that can alpha them before they can get in range to Music of the Apocalypse with their Sonic Blasters. If you are being rushed they can still drop in your deployment zone and light something up on turn 1.

With all of the restrictions to assault units, such as not being able to come in turn 1, and not being eligible for deep strike, I usually just prefer to start my choppy units on the board and use Warptime to close in. That said, the new Termite Drill, if it doesn't get nerfed. is pretty slick for deep striking close range cqc troops. Its t8, and has an absolutely brutal drill mounted on it. Very scary in melee, with great options for a lot of dakka.

saint_red wrote:

kaptin_Blacksquigg wrote:

 EverlastingNewb wrote:
He also didn't knew that the Maulerfiends could advance & charge.

If only, alas Maulers aren't effected by chapter traits :(

They get it from the allied Slaaneshi characters and their Daemonic Loci. Give your Maulerfiends MoS and now they have the required <Slaanesh> and <Daemon> keywords. The Renegades Legion Trait is just their for the infantry.

Yep, that's the stuff.

Two side questions; did anyone try out / got any experience with R&H Hellhounds or Lemus Russ' in stock config? Also, can you use the Vindicator Stratagem when 1 is a Vindicator Laser Destroyer?

I run a Plasma Russ and it can be great as long as you don’t melt yourself with Supercharge, but I feel that the battlecannon would be better for the main gun after using it a few times

I’m looking at picking up a Trio of Hellhounds, I think the track guards would be a mandatory upgrade on them.

 Iur_tae_mont wrote:
I run a Plasma Russ and it can be great as long as you don’t melt yourself with Supercharge

I’m looking at picking up a Trio of Hellhounds, I think the track guards would be a mandatory upgrade on them.

That was my idea as well - either run 3 Track guarded Hellhounds or 2 Quad-Flamer Hellforged Pred's (it's about 20~ points more expensive though).
In an assault-based lifeform army, they could be interesting to melt some faces.. literally.

Tbh, you’d end up spending 25 points to get a barebones renegade commander to keep it battle forged with a vanguard, but I think three hellhounds would work out better just because of track guards.

Yeah, fair enough.

Since i've never played H&R (or Imps for that matter), does a Tank-Squad counts as 1 drop if there are multiple vehicles? Wouldn't really matter unless you use a patrole detachment.

Oblits or terminators - in terms of weight of damage with stratagems?

For a similar number of points (~600) you can get 3x3 oblits or 10 combi plasma / power sword terms and a Sorcerer.

On average (with one squad with endless cacophany), oblits output 48 x S8 -2 D2 shots
Combi plasma terms (with EC and prescience) output 40 S8 -3 D2 shots (hitting on 2s)

Now, most people seem to be using oblits, and they do appear to tip over in terms of output (bar low stat rolls). However when you apply VOTLW strat the terms damage becomes a lot more consistent, wounding T7 on 2s. With one big squad you can buff it up whereas only one oblit squad can be buffed.

Another stratagy I haven't seen mentioned post FAQ is the ability to infiltrate Alpha Legion terminators (and sorc) for 2CP turn 1, then obvious use EC for another 2CP and optionally VOTLW you have a formidable alpha strike. Example calcs is that with both rounds of shooting can down two stormsurges (or 4 rhinos - ~40 wounds on T7)

Are oblits just that much more flexible in that they see the majority of the play time?

Obliterators are just a lot better.

* 3 wounds a pop mean Oblits aren't instant killed by 2 damage base attacks

* Oblits are fully effective at 24 inches, whereas Terminators really want to be rapid firing to get the most out of their plasma. This lets them fire over screens far more effectively.

* Oblits have a significantly smaller footprint, making them easier to deep strike and find pockets in those 9 inch denial bubbles from enemy units, where it can be difficult to fit 11 terminator bases in.

So it comes down to a lot of things. Veterans + Endless Cacophony is very good, even on a single unit of 3 Obliterators, you use it to make sure one or two targets are dead within that 24 inch range you have.

Your problem is that you are assuming that your 10 man block of terminators will be able to get multiple units within 12 inches to get full effectiveness out of those buffs - which will be exceptionally difficult to pull off against a competent player using a competitive list. It is a colossal waste of firepower and buffing energy when your Terminators only have 1 or 2 max targets in rapid fire range on arrival. Screening units make this even worse, nothing will drain the joy out of your face like only having a pair of 40 point guardsman or cultist squads in that 12 inch sweet spot.

Obliterators have more flexibility with where they land and are considerably harder to screen effectively due to to requiring to be within 12 inches. Its also worth noting that if you are talking about multiple squads of Obliterators, they can be in multiple places at once, and you don't even need to bring them all down at once if you want to keep a block of em up your sleeve until turn 3 for whatever reason.

Terminators in generally are overpriced for their durability and the offense you do get. Obliterators are expensive, but they are a fantastic gun platform and can deal heavy damage to almost any target in the game- especially if you use command points or psychic powers to buff them.

Also, for what it's worth, Oblits are Daemons.

Terminators had their moment when they could drop and Warptime on turn one. I actually ran mine with MoK and used Fury of Khorne and their near certain charge to RIP AND TEAR - or just tag - half the enemy army.

Worth noting that the MoS Terminator Death Star can have Delightful Agonies, which is almost as good as having 3W each. Can’t see myself fielding it now, though.

Good points, I hadn't fully considered the impact range had. Thanks

I use my 3x3 Oblits in a spearhead detatchment with my Tzeentch Daemons. I try to take over midfield T1 with 2x30 pinks then DS Oblits in the middle. My Herald buff them for +1S and my DP Warlord makes them reroll 1 to hit and 1 to wound witch makes a deadly combination!!!

Just trying to make up for the last ~500p for my 2k list and thinking of 3 Heldrakes for T1 charge and melt some units that might want my midfield.

Anyone tried a shooty list with 2 or 3 Heldrakes for distraction T1 charging? I only tried 1 so far but dies before i get to do anything..

P.S
Sorry for my English

Tazberry wrote:
I use my 3x3 Oblits in a spearhead detatchment with my Tzeentch Daemons. I try to take over midfield T1 with 2x30 pinks then DS Oblits in the middle. My Herald buff them for +1S and my DP Warlord makes them reroll 1 to hit and 1 to wound witch makes a deadly combination!!!

Just trying to make up for the last ~500p for my 2k list and thinking of 3 Heldrakes for T1 charge and melt some units that might want my midfield.

Anyone tried a shooty list with 2 or 3 Heldrakes for distraction T1 charging? I only tried 1 so far but dies before i get to do anything..

P.S
Sorry for my English

I've seen games with 3 Heldrakes and was not impressed. They don't have the shooting they once did and they're not exactly great in combat. The units they charge are chaff, who can throw back a lot of attacks.

Bikes are a little more appealing. They might not get into close combat, but - if they are a distraction unit - that might not matter.

I've seen games with 3 Heldrakes and was not impressed. They don't have the shooting they once did and they're not exactly great in combat. The units they charge are chaff, who can throw back a lot of attacks.

Bikes are a little more appealing. They might not get into close combat, but - if they are a distraction unit - that might not matter.

Yes i do know that they have awful shooting and should have 2D6 Assult flamer in my oppinion. But do you think bikes for ~500p would be distraction enough vs 2x30 Pinks. i play mainly Daemons but feels more and more i go to CSM for lacking (everything but 30man pink 4++).
But 30" move you be 6" in enemy deployment and then can charge over stuff aswellso maximum 42" charge-range. Can be good vs shooty list i might think but will look up bikers too.

Drakes still work okay against Flyers and Fly units. They can keep up with a Warp Timed unit also. I use then as escorts for fast moving Daemon Princes and Daemon Primarchs. But yea. Should have gotten a 2d3 flamer at least for a better spread of hits, or two different firing modes.

Hey guys, quick opinion request here. Can you help me decide between these two options? I'm building an all infantry army including a battalion lead by Abby. The plan was to take maximum advantage of the Black Legion trait to get advancing assault plasma guns marching up the board, with reroll misses. But I'm thinking just taking more cultists might be better.

Abby
5x CSM with combi-plas and plas
5x CSM with combi-plas and plas
24x Cultists with autoguns
10x Havocs with combi-plas and 4x plas

or

Abby
59x Cultists with autoguns
10x Havocs with combi-plas and 4x plas

The rest of my army includes,
Jump Sorc
Winged DP
20 Noise Marines (infiltrating)
10 Cultists
2x3 Oblits

Cheers heaps,

Tazberry wrote:
I use my 3x3 Oblits in a spearhead detatchment with my Tzeentch Daemons. I try to take over midfield T1 with 2x30 pinks then DS Oblits in the middle. My Herald buff them for +1S and my DP Warlord makes them reroll 1 to hit and 1 to wound witch makes a deadly combination!!!

Just trying to make up for the last ~500p for my 2k list and thinking of 3 Heldrakes for T1 charge and melt some units that might want my midfield.

Anyone tried a shooty list with 2 or 3 Heldrakes for distraction T1 charging? I only tried 1 so far but dies before i get to do anything..

P.S
Sorry for my English

+1str doesn't work as the str is base 6 + D3 not str USER + D3 or just +D3 etc. Personally i've found 3 oblits in deepstrike to be too slow if you are against for example tau and you go second, you will lose at least one pink squad (even with splitting) turn one against most tau lists. By the time you can deepstrike in all your bubble wrap is gone and riptides make short work of oblits once they are within 12 inches.

Even against most competitive lists at -1 to hit and maybe lightning fast another -1 pinks will be hitting on 6's. Or if you try to use them to FB against another cheap troop Without rerolling even firing 90 shots you will only be hitting 15 times, wounding maybe half that and then they may have a 3-4 up save - which communicate to about 3-4 wounds for the entire units. Slightly better hitting on 5's and rerolling but against models that are 2+ in cover or even 3+ I've been surprised how few wounds tend ot make it through.

Obviously you have to shoot the right units - but it can be surprisingly frustrating when you need First blood and you light up a ranger squad with 90 shots just to see them only get hit on 6's with strat and save the majority of the attacks - and walk out unscathed. I feel like the 3T really hurts them too - if you are running two squads the opponent will shoot whichever one you don't use the strat on for +1 invul and even with a 4 up save they pop pretty easily.

Yeah, even with random weapon profiles, 9 Oblits feels overspecialised. I tend to bring them with a Havoc squad or two, something that can castle up and control a wide radius.

I’ve been thinking. Warptime, Prescience, and Death Hex are awesome. Definitely worth a DP + Sorceror.

The deity spells are also nice. DA is my fave, followed by Miasma. Can’t even remember name of Tzeentch one, but it’s not, like, terrible.

Diabolic Strength makes for a frightening DP, but what about casting it on... a Berzerker champion?

No, hear me out.

If there’s something you’ll struggle to kill at range - say, a Knight with effective 3++ and solid DTW coverage (there’s a FORGE WORLD that brings a 4+ DTW stratagem, which with a reroll stops 75% of Death Hexes, even if you cast on a 14), which also has high damage melee attacks (dunno about you, but I wince whenever my mate’s Tervigon swings those D6 damage claws at a character), then a de facto 6A (eight, if its a charging World Eater, +50% if you burn 3CP) with a squad of ablative wounds looks interesting. Easier to keep out of DTW range than when you get within spitting distance to play Death Hex Roulette.

Definitely worth remembering, IMO, for when your zerk horde is about to Warptime and you’re musing on burning off a familiar to take your opponent by surprise.

Honestly I've taken death hex in a fair number of games, i can never get in range. The 8 WC and 12 inch cast range just seem prohibitive, i've even resorted to taking ahriman on a disc and it is still a struggle to do without exposing my char, have you been having great success with it? How do you position well enough to maximize the utility?

orkswubwub wrote:
Honestly I've taken death hex in a fair number of games, i can never get in range. The 8 WC and 12 inch cast range just seem prohibitive, i've even resorted to taking ahriman on a disc and it is still a struggle to do without exposing my char, have you been having great success with it? How do you position well enough to maximize the utility?

I also fail 95% of my Death Hex. Either I fail (and hilariously I seem to roll snakeyes on it often) or it's denied.

orkswubwub wrote:
Honestly I've taken death hex in a fair number of games, i can never get in range. The 8 WC and 12 inch cast range just seem prohibitive, i've even resorted to taking ahriman on a disc and it is still a struggle to do without exposing my char, have you been having great success with it? How do you position well enough to maximize the utility?

Deep-striking Sorcerers and Daemon Princes. Whatever casts it has to be durable.

Positioning is tricky, but 12 inches is a 24 inch bubble. That covers a fair bit of the table.

I gave up on offensive Sorcerers a while ago, but the other problem with Death Hex is Deny. I would have, say, Mortarion coming at my lines, Death Hex would go off and he would Deny it.

I think I'm giving up on my heldrake so the thought of taking three just seems madness. The only thing it ever manages is to shut down a couple of tanks shooting for a turn and absorb the sort of firepower that would probably normally be going into my rhino or predator.
The trouble is, the first turn charge is all very good but there is never really a viable target on the board that it can do any significant damage to. Maybe it will kill a couple of marines, it can't even burn up chaff with only d6 autohits.
If you're thinking of taking three, take three predators for turn one killshot and you'll do far more damage.
Unless someone can enlighten me on getting these things to work? I love the models, but like all the Daemon engines they're underwhelming which is a shame because at the moment I feel like I'm playing space marines

The thing about Death Hex is, whilst it’s hard to cast, it’s terrifying to face. Knowing that a Knight or THSS squad or whatever can be stripped nekkid means your humble Sorcerer who never even gets within casting range exerts a serious psychological threat. They can be a scarecrow and a sheepdog. Don’t build a plan around casting it - if you get an opportunity to cast it, make sure that your gunner units have an alternative target and you haven’t moved your entire army into precarious positions on a gambit that relies on the enemy LoC losing its 2++. I hardly ever get to cast it, but it’s something my regular opponent builds army lists around as she’s terrified of her TWC and Wulfen dropping their shields again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
RE Heldrakes: cast DA on one and it becomes a pretty amusing Distraction Carnifex. Also, they shut down shooting for a turn. If you can do multi-lane drifting on your pile in move, you can often tag multiple gunners you didn’t even declare a charge on, Once someone’s dealt with that trick a few times, the presence of a single turkey controls half their deployment decisions.

Disclaimer: this is not to say they’re as good a choice as more Havocs or Obliterators or Noise Marines

death hex is a game changing power, regardless his moderately high cost is a must take for me, cast it on necron wraiths or storm shield termies or Magnus and you deal tons of damage, i play Ahriman on disk so i can cast it at +3 if i need and i have an effective range of 30", death hex cast at average 10 is pretty hard to deny, lasy tournament casted it on wraiths then blasted them away with a nurgle Dp dealing 3-5 damage each wound, a massacre.

I never thought about delightful agonies, might be difficult to keep the Drake in range whilst still charging your opponents backline shooters.
Like you say, they absorb a lot of fire, it's a sacrificial lamb I guess you have to weigh up the lack of damage it causes against the reduction it causes in your opponents ability to damage you

drakes againts a competent player during 1st turn will charge just chaffs, they have too few damage output for 185pts, maybe they can work in a aggressive list

I mean a laspred should take about 7 wounds off an enemy predator. Is that better than tying that enemy predator up for a round of shooting? Okay, the helldrake can tie up more than one thing if you're fortunate with deployment.
I think I'd rather take the 7 wounds and let your opponent fire back at 4+.