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Hi all! I'm back to discuss which HQ is better: Cato Sicarius (200pts) or Vulkan He'stan (190pts)

First up: Sicarius
-Normal captain stats
-Wargear is Artificer Armor with FNP, Plasma Pistol, Iron Halo and a power sword sword that can forgo all attacks for one instant kill potential
-Every C:SM can use his leadership 10 as long as he is alive
-Gives one tactical squad a choice of USR: Counter Attack, Scout, Infiltrator, or tank hunter.
-Keeps combat tactics
-open ups Command squad

Now, for vulkan:
-Normal captain stats
-has artificer armor, digital weapons, twin linked heavy flamer, 3+ invuln save, Spear of vulkan**
-Chapter tactics take away combat tactics and makes all Melta-guns and Multi-meltas along with flamers twinlinked
-makes TH/SS terminators better


** for the spear of vulkan, I had some debate at my local GW over what type of weapon it is. TFG complains and demands that the weapon is a power lance, while I prefer it to be a relic blade as it is listed in the entry. help?


okay, so now that the listing is done, I want to know your opinions on both of them. I myself am leaning more towards Cato Sicarius. I like his ability to give troopers a special Rule as it gives me a little more tactical ideas than just "Run up and melta/flame someone until they are not there anymore." Tank hunter now seems like a really good rule for a guy sitting in back either with a lascannon or manning a quadgun. (or both!) and I feel i am not limited to taking just melta stuff.

your oppinions on these two different guys would be great! and I kinda need help with the spear of vulkan thing.

Tiger9gamer wrote:** for the spear of vulkan, I had some debate at my local GW over what type of weapon it is. TFG complains and demands that the weapon is a power lance, while I prefer it to be a relic blade as it is listed in the entry. help?

First off, there is literally zero argument to be made that this weapon is a power lance. The entry clearly states that it is a relic blade. It's really that simple.

As far as Vulkan vs. Sicarius, Vulkan is still going to be the character of choice for a competitive army. TH/SS Termies got better, and flamers got better, and Vulkan buffs both of those. Meltas are still good, and Vulkan is still a very efficient choice points-wise as well. He's not the be-all end-all of SM lists, but he's very strong for the in-your-face melta/flamer style of army list.

Sicarius is still a strong fluffy choice, and as you mentioned using Tank Hunters with a Quad-Gun is a great way to maximize the boost he gives to your army. Overall, he's much less cost-efficient than Vulkan, particularly because he's not as killy as Vulkan nor are his army buffs as good. I go for Sicarius first because I play Ultramarines, and because I like his fluff, but he's definitely underwhelming to use on the tabletop, particularly because another 65 points gets you Big Daddy Calgar, who is tougher, has a great army buff, and is more than twice as killy.

Roboute wrote:

Tiger9gamer wrote:** for the spear of vulkan, I had some debate at my local GW over what type of weapon it is. TFG complains and demands that the weapon is a power lance, while I prefer it to be a relic blade as it is listed in the entry. help?

First off, there is literally zero argument to be made that this weapon is a power lance. The entry clearly states that it is a relic blade. It's really that simple.

wait, im confused and or slowed, is it or is it not a power lance now? X-X

Hmm I admit he does make those dang termies a lot stronger in CC, although come to think of it so could Kantor with his +1 attack bubble. Also I dont have terminators that make good use of vulkan, so theres that. I might not know how to efficiently use Vulkan, his hard hitting attacks havnt really saved any games yet, and I might need to build my army more around him.

any other opinions and help?

Well, if you say that you don't have TH/SS termies yet, I would definitely lean towards Sicarius. As mentioned above a tank hunter squad with a lascannon and a quad-gun is gonna be very valuable these days.
Also combat-tactics have gained a boost since you don't have to sweat about getting walked off the board now.
I've built a couple of lists with Sicarius and really my only dilemma is figuring out who I want him to hang out with. I'm reluctant to push him forward in CC since he can be insta-killed fairly easily...

My choice is still vulkan. despite relic blades being relegated to ap3. Frankly his twin linking of heat weapons and master crafting hammernators seems like a much better buff to me. Also add to the fact he has a better invuln so it's harder to insta kill him than sicarius I don't see many advantages to not taking him. ATSKNF in 6th edition makes sicarius's leadership rule not great. Although his reroll of seizing initiative is nice. And his special rules gift only applies to tactical squads so it's not great either. As I don't use any quad guns for tank hunters to buff it.

Tiger9gamer wrote:wait, im confused and or slowed, is it or is it not a power lance now? X-X

It is most definitely not a power lance. If the Spear of Vulkan was described as a power weapon, there might be some ambiguity, ala Dante/Axe Mortalis. However, the weapon is clearly described as a relic blade, so it's a relic blade. If someone tries to tell you it's not a relic blade, point out the description in your codex, then roll that codex up and smack them with it. Hard.

Roboute wrote:

Tiger9gamer wrote:wait, im confused and or slowed, is it or is it not a power lance now? X-X

It is most definitely not a power lance. If the Spear of Vulkan was described as a power weapon, there might be some ambiguity, ala Dante/Axe Mortalis. However, the weapon is clearly described as a relic blade, so it's a relic blade. If someone tries to tell you it's not a relic blade, point out the description in your codex, then roll that codex up and smack them with it. Hard.

hahaha yes. im going to follow that advice I think

and about instand death kind of things, it can (usually) be worked around with the 2+ "Look out sir!" roll. As with vulkan, his artificer armor makes it harder for units to donkey punch him in CCW now with the whole ap 3 power swords, and his FNP got a little better to help him deal with non instant death things. I think i'll try out Sicarius my next game, and maybe learn better tactics for Vulkan.

If you look under the entry for relic blade in the space marine codex it states that a relic blade is a "power weapon" which strikes at strength 6. So Vulkans weapon is both a power lance and a relic blade, not one or the other.

So basically its a strength 6 ap 4 weapon, or strength 6 ap 3 on the turn he charges. Unfortunately the set strength 6 of the relic blade ignores the extra +1 strength from the power lance.

Samasho wrote:If you look under the entry for relic blade in the space marine codex it states that a relic blade is a "power weapon" which strikes at strength 6. So Vulkans weapon is both a power lance and a relic blade, not one or the other.

So basically its a strength 6 ap 4 weapon, or strength 6 ap 3 on the turn he charges. Unfortunately the set strength 6 of the relic blade ignores the extra +1 strength from the power lance.

Unusual Power Weapon. It's S6 AP3 and nothing else.

Samasho wrote:If you look under the entry for relic blade in the space marine codex it states that a relic blade is a "power weapon" which strikes at strength 6. So Vulkans weapon is both a power lance and a relic blade, not one or the other.

So basically its a strength 6 ap 4 weapon, or strength 6 ap 3 on the turn he charges. Unfortunately the set strength 6 of the relic blade ignores the extra +1 strength from the power lance.

No, because relic blades follow the rules for Special power weapons, meaning it is allwase s6 ap 3.

Edit: ninja'd

I have played Sicarius and though he is not for power builds he is a very fun and fluffy character. I played him in a sneaky and very fast ultramarines list at a tournament in LA last year. The judges rated my army as being just fun and fluffy so i got placed with the low tier and less competative lists. 5th round i ended up on the main table playing to win the tourni. IT did not happen but i do have to say that being able to give one unit any of those four USR is pretty cool from a "just having fun" perspective. From a TFG power build point of view he Sicarius is expensive and not nearly as good as vulkan or pedro.

What do you want to play. Cheese or fun. Your choice. As i like to play sneaky and fun i choose Kato.

It also depends on how you want to build your list. If your using lots of infantry, but not many meltas or flamers, sicarius is the way to go. On the other hand, if you want to spam flamers and meltas, go Vulkan.

alright, I think I'll try out one hq or another for a game. another question is how to use combat tactics effectively. I would like to use Cato to try this out more, and I heard ATSKNF got upgraded, so I want to hear how this works.

Tiger9gamer wrote:alright, I think I'll try out one hq or another for a game. another question is how to use combat tactics effectively. I would like to use Cato to try this out more, and I heard ATSKNF got upgraded, so I want to hear how this works.

ATSKNF regroups no matter what, and they don't take no retreat. As for combat tactics, you use it when A. you are shot to where you need to take moral check, and there is an assault unit within 12, or B. you loose combat, unless you will wipe the enemy squad next turn.

Basically, you use it whenever you are somewhere you don't want to be.

So when I get shot at and dont lose any models, can I still use combat tactics? Or is it only when I lose models?

You can only use it when you would normally have to take a moral check.

So when I lose 25% of a tact squad?

Tiger9gamer wrote:wait, im confused and or slowed, is it or is it not a power lance now? X-X

Dude- Your codex.
When TFG goes "its a power lance"
Pull out your codex
Go to the page with the wargear
POINT to him and visually show him the sentence "The spear of vulkans aka his pleasure stick is a relic blade"
Then tell him to Find the rule and show you the rule that says its a power lance, because the rule you are now both reading clearly states its a mother ing relic blade

If TFG ran up to you and said the sky is green, would you believe him?
Against all evidence before you, you would believe this guy that the sky is green even though you look up and see it is blue? Just because he's a insistent little baby?

Jihallah wrote:
If TFG ran up to you and said the sky is green, would you believe him?
Against all evidence before you, you would believe this guy that the sky is green even though you look up and see it is blue? Just because he's a insistent little baby?

oooooh that one stung good point, good point. next time he brings it up (or gives me other grief for the models I choose to use) i'll tell him to buy the codex and shove it up his

thanks for clearing that up!

It's an unusual power weapon so S6 AP3.

Tiger9gamer wrote:So when I lose 25% of a tact squad?

Yes. When you lose 3 Marines in a 10man Squad, or 2 in a Combat Squad, or if someone forces you to take a morale check through other means.

Be aware that this post is looking through BT tinted glasses.

200 points for a 4th ed captain with ld 10 (IIRC captains were 9 and masters were 10), FNP, a skill for a tactical squad,, make the seize chance 1/3, and a special power sword doesn't seem worth it. IMO his main deal is that he gives rites of battle, but...
Marshal w/ artificer, plasma pistol, iron halo, power sword, frags, and kraks=158-this would be 5 points cheaper with a 4th ed C:SM master IIRC, who also has access to a command squad.

However, since the choice is between sicarius or vulkan, if you don't wish to run a lot of flamers and melta, as well as some TH/SS termies, choose Sicarius-I say this because combat tactics is awesome, and that you need to be sure that you benefit enough from his chapter tactics to make the difference. Even though I'm not a fan, sicarius' special rules aren't bad