Defiler Question

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**frenrik**

So, had a game the other night, and these two questions came out

For shooting, do the big arms on a defiler count as hull, or decoration?

In our game, the gun was in range of one claw, but not anything else

For melee, do you need to get to the body, or can you just touch a leg/arm? It just seemed awkward to place models and not count the arms.

**Green is Best!**

Arms should not count.

I would have to look in the new rules, but in 5th ed, it said the legs and hull are what counted. Since arms can be blown off, just like a weapon, I would not count.

**Kevin949**

Page 84, under walkers and measuring.

**TheAvengingKnee**

The arms do not count, the legs do.

**Kevin949**

TheAvengingKnee wrote:The arms do not count, the legs do.

Yes they do. See the walker rules, the defiler is actually mentioned. Arms would fall under the "Legs and other limbs" distinction.

**TheAvengingKnee**

I misread that since it says you cant measure to weapons. Even better for me since my usual opponent is a CSM player with one.

**Kevin949**

TheAvengingKnee wrote:I misread that since it says you cant measure to weapons. Even better for me since my usual opponent is a CSM player with one.

I think that's just for normal vehicles, correct?

**TheAvengingKnee**

Well it says(in the walkers and measuring section on page 84):

measure to and from it's hull (including any legs or other limbs), as normal for vehicles. The walker's weapons are an exception to this, as explained below.

I assumed that since the arms are DCCW that they are weapons and would be an exception like other weapons, this may be wrong though.

**Kiredor**

The walkers weapons are an exception because you measure FROM the barrel of them for shooting, rather than from the hull.

**Kevin949**

Kiredor wrote:The walkers weapons are an exception because you measure FROM the barrel of them for shooting, rather than from the hull.

When firing from the walker, yes. When measuring "to" the walker you use whatever is visible if it's not on a base. That includes arms, legs, hull, etc. Just not antennae, banners, things like that.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheAvengingKnee wrote:Well it says(in the walkers and measuring section on page 84):

measure to and from it's hull (including any legs or other limbs), as normal for vehicles. The walker's weapons are an exception to this, as explained below.

I assumed that since the arms are DCCW that they are weapons and would be an exception like other weapons, this may be wrong though.

The exception they're speaking of is shooting with a walker. Besides, most walkers not on a base do not have weapons that stick out farther than legs (as they're most likely multi-legged). Well, I should say non-conversion models anyway. Either way, measuring to it for firing or assault, it's still a limb.

**Green is Best!**

The front arms of a defiler are weapons, not part of the base. You need to be in contact with the hull. In the case of a Defiler (or Soul grinder), the hull is considered the body and legs.

The arms can be blown off by a weapon destroyed. This is no different then trying to get in assault range by making contact with the tip of a lascannon barrel on a regular vehicle.

**Kevin949**

Green is Best! wrote:The front arms of a defiler are weapons, not part of the base. You need to be in contact with the hull. In the case of a Defiler (or Soul grinder), the hull is considered the body and legs.

The arms can be blown off by a weapon destroyed. This is no different then trying to get in assault range by making contact with the tip of a lascannon barrel on a regular vehicle.

By that logic though someone could take a walker with multiple DCCW or whatever and just claim all the limbs are weapons. I get what you're saying, which is why I made the comment that it didn't matter much as most walkers not on a base don't have arms that stick out much past the legs anyway (if at all past them). But an arm is still a limb and while you couldn't assault the barrel of a weapon on a non-based walker you can still contact that arm that it's attached to.

Sure, you can blow it off with a weapon destroyed result but that doesn't actually give you permission to remove pieces of the model. Rather, I should say, I don't typically agree to let opponents remove pieces of their models. If they have a method to leave it in place but suitably mark it as destroyed (such as turning a turret on a tank upside down) then fine. If not, I'll make them a marker. But looking over the rulebook the only vehicle damage result that says you can modify a vehicle mid-game is a wrecked result.

**Green is Best!**

Well, I personaly don't care how its played as long as its defined up front and consistent throughout the game.

My problem is that the arms are poseable. If you allow me to use them to assault, I can extend the arms out or retract them in. Granted, that would be a no-no in game, but it is possible. I just don't see the arms as counting as hull, just as I would not count any other weapon as hull.

As far as removing parts, I don't see what the problem is. Its an easy way to remember what has been destroyed. Again, the only time you measure from a weapon is from the tip of a barrel to check range. Otherwise, it is not counted as part of the hull for assault puposes.

The only case I see this being an issue is the defiler. A soul grinder has 6 legs and is pretty much static.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Green is Best! wrote:Well, I personaly don't care how its played as long as its defined up front and consistent throughout the game.

My problem is that the arms are poseable. If you allow me to use them to assault, I can extend the arms out or retract them in. Granted, that would be a no-no in game, but it is possible. I just don't see the arms as counting as hull, just as I would not count any other weapon as hull. The footprint of the legs takes up a pretty large area as is. Adding in the claws really doesnt change much (unless you had them extended straight out). Again, I am not going to lose sleep over it if you were to insist one way or another, but if you ask me what I consider hull, the arms are not included.

As far as removing parts, I don't see what the problem is. Its an easy way to remember what has been destroyed. Again, the only time you measure from a weapon is from the tip of a barrel to check range. Otherwise, it is not counted as part of the hull for assault puposes.

The only case I see this being an issue is the defiler. A soul grinder has 6 legs and is pretty much static.

**Kevin949**

Green is Best! wrote:Well, I personaly don't care how its played as long as its defined up front and consistent throughout the game.

My problem is that the arms are poseable. If you allow me to use them to assault, I can extend the arms out or retract them in. Granted, that would be a no-no in game, but it is possible. I just don't see the arms as counting as hull, just as I would not count any other weapon as hull.

As far as removing parts, I don't see what the problem is. Its an easy way to remember what has been destroyed. Again, the only time you measure from a weapon is from the tip of a barrel to check range. Otherwise, it is not counted as part of the hull for assault puposes.

The only case I see this being an issue is the defiler. A soul grinder has 6 legs and is pretty much static.

Well I have legs on my triarch stalker that are pose-able as well. Take the good with the bad.

The problem is you're modifying the size of a model mid-game. And you measure from the barrel for shooting "from" a vehicle or walker. I'm not saying the bun barrel is part of the hull, I am saying the "arm" is. There is a difference. The gun barrel has to stop somewhere, right?