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I have been reading a lot of posts that say these units are not as good in 6th edition for tar pits and objective holding. The main argument was that the commie could be targeted by a blast or easily picked off in some other way. To me it seems like he is more durable because he is an independent character, thus granting a 2+ look out sir. This, combined with stubborn and 20-50 wounds, seems like a pretty good option to me...

Any input would be appreciated. I just don't understand how this is not viable.

He can be picked off by Barrage Blast, Regular blasts just take wounds from the front iirc.

So you can't look out sir blasts?

That would make sense, but I don't remember seeing it.

He's also only a regular character, which means he's only chucking guardsmen in front of him on a 4+.

And since he has flak armor and no invuln, he's not going to pass to many saves anyways, so it'll be rare for him to survive more than a single hit.

Lord commissars have a shot of surviving, but at the expense of double a normal commissar and eating up a very import HQ slot, which come at a premium for IG, especially in foot lists.

I see now...still, it does not seem too bad to me. Just not amazing.

This discussion has popped up in a few threads talking about foot guard and IG in general, I'd make sure you read through all the threads relating to IG to get the full taste of the discussion.

I'll put my thoughts here too.

What are you trying to do with the foot blob? Foot units in this edition are going to extremes. The units that get into the most trouble are the ones in the 200-300 point range. Smaller more expendable units can take chunks off of you, and there are 400+ point units in more than half of the codecies that would prefer to find a stubborn or fearless unit around 30 models strong, because then they can safely stay in combat with you for a turn, before consolidating right before a fresh turn.

To keep it very simple, with foot units, it is all about wound allocation. The players who understand the rule better and have more experience with the rule are going to trash people who don't have a lot of experience. The foot game has gotten a lot more tactical. (I know, I would have never believed it from GW).

This helps and hurts the foot blob. You really need to spend time trying to figure out what you want from it.

Do you just want something to sit behind an Aegis, be alive, and score? Well, you don't really need a foot blob for that, but if you wanted something that can hold off 5 man immortals or 5 man wyches, or 10 termagants, then you can dabble with a power axe or two and a commissar or two, please align your expecations of that unit. It is not going to win you the game, it is not going to wade through any but the measeliest of combats, and it is of utmost importance that you fully understand how wounds are allocated. The commissars need to be placed intelligently, and moved intelligently, as do the sergeants.

Do you want to win combats and stomp all over other assault units? The infantry blob can do that too, but you'll need batle brother help. I have tried the pure IG deathstar, and it is just too easy to cut through, and the characters die off too quickly to make it. Khan gives you hit and run, which can be terrifying to your opponent, azrael gives you a 4++, pedro gives +1 attack, there are space wolves that can give you preferred enemy, etc, etc. With this big beater, your success will come from your ability to position the models correctly. I like to take flamers here, but I put them towards the back. Why? I don't really plan to use them offensively, I like mass flamers for walls of death. Your sergeants have to be close to the front, enough so that their 3" step up at I1 will be enough to get within 2" of someone in base to base, but not so close that early wounds will get allocated to them. One or two is ok, because you have look out sir, but more than that will lose you the models you need to win.

To win in 6th, you need neither the 20 strong foot bunker nor the 50 strong deathstar. They are amusing changes of pace from the tried and tested chimera based army, and they work, as long as you have the skills to use them.

Commissar lords are perfectly survivable, as you've surmised, most people are referring to the regular commissars in the units, as that is what we used to run in power blobs, and that is the much more affordable option. Those guys only have a 4+ look out sir, and the plan really falls apart without them. NOw we'll have to invest in at least a second one, merely from precision shots, let alone barrage, and a commissar lord is a good choice instead.

People forget that ICs have lost almost all of the things that make them easy to kill. Where regular characters got all these wound allocation strategies that funnel wounds towards them, they only got a 4+ LoS, ICs don't even need to base up models in a unit to fight anymore, and can pass anything that isn't part of a challenge off to someone else. Power fist commissars can therefore add to the units surviviblity, add to its damage output, at very little risk, just as long as you are playing smart with positioning. Sergeants and priests are great suckers to take a challenge, and then let your commissar go nuts.

You've given one reason. here are a dozen more.

Probably the most damning one is wound allocation, actually. If you stick the commissar anywhere near the front, he will just be picked off instantly. If you have him anywhere near the middle, then your opponent only needs to pick off a couple of guardsmen from any one direction before he's suddenly the closest model. If you have him in the back, then he's still not safe (for other reasons), and now he's not going to make it into close combat on the charge.

Power blobs are gone, and shooty blobs are basically done for. Don't bother wasting points on commissars anymore unless you really like them for fluff reasons.

Your entitled to your opinion Alairos...

But I've chopped through competitive armies with Azrael+blob too consistently lately to agree with you.

I understand the concept that you are trying to get into people's heads, but proper placement of your models, a 4+ invulnerable save, and a bunch of power axes was too much for my opponents, opponents who I would call great 40k players.

What he's trying to get at is that if you're using blobs in a Pure IG list you'll be in trouble I believe. It's no secret that ironically, every army BESIDES IG seems to be making great use of them now, but yet they're almost useless on their own.

Kind of sad. I miss my commissars already. They were one of my favorite parts of my army. Heck I may start taking a lord just for nostalgia sake

MrMoustaffa wrote:What he's trying to get at is that if you're using blobs in a Pure IG list you'll be in trouble I believe.

That is a fair point.

All good points. I think i should have mentioned that these units wouldn't be spammed, but would be part of a hybrid list. If my opponent wanted to kill them, he would have to devote fire/assault that would have gone to my chimeras or heavy tanks. If they are ignored, they can be at least a thorn in the side with go to ground on objectives or frfsrf, and if engaged, they soak up valuable enemy fire.

MrMoustaffa wrote: It's no secret that ironically, every army BESIDES IG seems to be making great use of them now, but yet they're almost useless on their own.

...

I don't know how to feel about this.

Proper guardsmen reduced to henchmen for space marines?

Ailaros wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote: It's no secret that ironically, every army BESIDES IG seems to be making great use of them now, but yet they're almost useless on their own.

...

I don't know how to feel about this.

Proper guardsmen reduced to henchmen for space marines?

Screw it, I'm bringing em back, come hell or high water. 50 man blobs, Yarrick and a lord commissar. As many regular commissars as I can afford, All are packing fists or maces. And as many conscripts as I can afford. I will cover the board in guardsmen.

People WILL learn to fear the blob again.

Ailaros wrote:You've given one reason. here are a dozen more.

Uh.... "Blast" weapons (e.g. Plasma Cannons ) can't snap fire.... can they ? And "Lumbering Behemoth" only lets you fire LRBT weapons at 6"... not 12".... ?


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Oh and Strakken can't go in a Land Raider because not even "Battle Brothers" can embark on allied transports (lame rule, I really wanted some Space Marine Fliers for my Space Wolves)

Firstly has anyone created the curious dinosaur meme with something about 6th edition discussions always refer back to 5th edition.

karlosovic wrote:

Ailaros wrote:You've given one reason. here are a dozen more.

Uh.... "Blast" weapons (e.g. Plasma Cannons ) can't snap fire.... can they ? And "Lumbering Behemoth" only lets you fire LRBT weapons at 6"... not 12".... ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and Strakken can't go in a Land Raider because not even "Battle Brothers" can embark on allied transports (lame rule, I really wanted some Space Marine Fliers for my Space Wolves)

I assume the website has been updated, not sure to what you are referring.

Essentially marine ICs make blobs good. This is whole different discussion. To summarise Jacobus and Azrael are awesome but what else can those codices give you(?), wolf priest with saga of the hunter and Rune priest is clearly for the win.

They have a variety of roles they can do well.

Meat shield for tanks, as they can block cc, which can kill tanks all to quickly, and provide cover, 25% cover using infantry models is about right.

Walking forward is tricky as they die all too quickly in the open, but you'll still have plenty of 24'' weaponry to fight back with.

Outflanking, scouting and infiltrating can be very funny and make them into virtually an alpha strike unit.

They can die but stealth, FNP or 4++ can make them pretty darn hard to move off objectives. Note you can only grab one but covering multiple objectives can be just as useful.

MFletch wrote:Firstly has anyone created the curious dinosaur meme with something about 6th edition discussions always refer back to 5th edition.

karlosovic wrote:

Ailaros wrote:You've given one reason. here are a dozen more.

Uh.... "Blast" weapons (e.g. Plasma Cannons ) can't snap fire.... can they ? And "Lumbering Behemoth" only lets you fire LRBT weapons at 6"... not 12".... ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and Strakken can't go in a Land Raider because not even "Battle Brothers" can embark on allied transports (lame rule, I really wanted some Space Marine Fliers for my Space Wolves)

I assume the website has been updated, not sure to what you are referring.

There's 2 other pages linked to that article that make up his summary of 6th ed for Guard - I was commenting on them as a whole. Mainly I found them very interesting - there was just the odd fundemental error