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Made in gb
Knight of the Inner Circle






hi there guys.

mu question about Furiouso lib dreadys...

1. what qsycic mastery are they?

2. do they like blood angel libs know 2 powers from the 4 available lores?

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Assault Kommando





1) since you can cast one power per turn, they are Level 1.

2) In the FAQ, it says that librarians can exchange their powers, but it doesn't state that Furioso librarians have this option so they cannot.

P.S. your spelling is almost unreadable.
   
Made in us
Furious Raptor




Fort Worth, TX

Hellstorm wrote:1) since you can cast one power per turn, they are Level 1.

2) In the FAQ, it says that librarians can exchange their powers, but it doesn't state that Furioso librarians have this option so they cannot.

P.S. your spelling is almost unreadable.


This is up for debate, if I recall a thread around here. Some would argue that a Furioso Librarian is still a Librarian and doesn't require a separate distinction.

My group plays it as they are able to select other powers.

Hopefully, this will be FAQ'd in the next FAQ release.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/10 13:28:04


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Made in us
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





Utah

Shouldn't need to be FAQd, the Furioso Librarian is a Librarian. If you argue that it is not then your Reclusiarch is not a Chaplain and cannot benefit from the rules that apply to Chaplans.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Captain Antivas wrote:Shouldn't need to be FAQd, the Furioso Librarian is a Librarian. If you argue that it is not then your Reclusiarch is not a Chaplain and cannot benefit from the rules that apply to Chaplans.


Strawman argument is a strawman

Furioso Librarian is a composite noun, meaning you dont get to remove the word "Furioso" from it and keep any meaning. Same way a Heavy Flamer isnt a Flamer for the purposes of Vulkans rule

In essence, you have currently no rules support, just an appeal to emotion
   
Made in us
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Utah

A Heavy Flamer is a flamer for Vulkan's rule. BRB page 56 lists Heavy Flamer as a Flamer weapon.

Using your argument applied to another situation that makes no sense is not Strawman it is pointing out the flaw in your logic. Composite noun is irrelevant. He is a Librarian. You have no rules support for your claim. I have the FAQ saying all Librarians can, you have your definition of what is a Librarian without a single rule to support said definition. You have no rules support that the name of a model must be what the statline says and not composite nouns. I have the description and the fact that only a librarian can have a psychic hood. Which the Furioso does have. Cite a rule supporting your claim.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




I know that - the point was if they had NOT said "Heavy Flamer" but just said "flamer" you would NOT be able to include Heavy Flamers.

They had to specifically enumerate Heavy Flamers as a specific type because.....they are NOT flamers.

MEaning that the name of the item IS important. Who'd have thought.

Furioso Librarians are by definition NOT Librarians, but they ARE librarians

The ENglish Language, the language the game is written in, tells me all I need to know about nouns. I suggest you look them up.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/10 13:47:11


 
   
Made in us
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Utah

Cite a rule. Show me where in the rulebook a Furioso Librarian is not a Librarian.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Done. You see the English language, yes? "X Y" is not the same thing as "Y", where "X Y" is a composite noun. Furioso Librarian, Heavy Flamer (which is why vulkans ability has to list heavy flamers), Assault Cannon etc are all examples of composite nouns. FOr example if we were to believe in your made up language rules that are not English, an Assault Cannon is now Assault, because the name isnt a noun, is it?

If you disagree that the rules of the English language apply, please find me a rule which defines "a"

I'll wait.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/10 13:52:55


 
   
Made in ie
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard





Ireland

Flamer and melta are group nouns... if we are going to be snotty about English then you have forgotten the respect aspect of debate.

If librarian is a group noun in the faq then it would be reasonable that it would refer to furioso librarians too.

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Buffalo, NY

Captain Antivas wrote:Shouldn't need to be FAQd, the Furioso Librarian is a Librarian. If you argue that it is not then your Reclusiarch is not a Chaplain and cannot benefit from the rules that apply to Chaplans.


I see information regarding Reclusiarchs on page 42 (Chaplains). Where on page 46 does the codex talk about Furioso Librarians? As near as I can tell, a Furioso Librarian is an "upgraded" dreadnought, similar to a Reclusiarch being an "upgraded" Chaplain.

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
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Made in ie
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Ireland

nosferatu1001 wrote:Done. You see the English language, yes?

If you dsiagree that the rules of the English language apply, please find me a rule which defines "A"

I'll wait.

Honestly?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Happyjew wrote:
Captain Antivas wrote:Shouldn't need to be FAQd, the Furioso Librarian is a Librarian. If you argue that it is not then your Reclusiarch is not a Chaplain and cannot benefit from the rules that apply to Chaplans.


I see information regarding Reclusiarchs on page 42 (Chaplains). Where on page 46 does the codex talk about Furioso Librarians? As near as I can tell, a Furioso Librarian is an "upgraded" dreadnought, similar to a Reclusiarch being an "upgraded" Chaplain.


Maybe there is a venn diagram out there that has dreadnoughts and librarians and a small intersection with furioso librarians.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/10 13:53:58


It's not the size of the blade, it's how you use it.
2000+
1500+
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For all YMDC arguements remember: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vbd3E6tK2U

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Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




liturgies of blood wrote:Flamer and melta are group nouns... if we are going to be snotty about English then you have forgotten the respect aspect of debate.

If librarian is a group noun in the faq then it would be reasonable that it would refer to furioso librarians too.


They are not group nouns; if they were then Vulkans ability wuold not require Heavy FLamers and Multimeltas to be enumerated.

Librarian is a defined Noun in the BA Codex. Furioso Librarian is a defined (composite) noun. Show a rule allowing the word "Furioso" to be removed from the composite noun and for the meaning of the noun to not change.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





nosferatu1001 wrote:
Captain Antivas wrote:Shouldn't need to be FAQd, the Furioso Librarian is a Librarian. If you argue that it is not then your Reclusiarch is not a Chaplain and cannot benefit from the rules that apply to Chaplans.


Strawman argument is a strawman

Furioso Librarian is a composite noun, meaning you dont get to remove the word "Furioso" from it and keep any meaning. Same way a Heavy Flamer isnt a Flamer for the purposes of Vulkans rule

In essence, you have currently no rules support, just an appeal to emotion


You took high school debate good on you, but throwing out a fallacy flag never really helps you in the real world.

Librarian is an upgrade to a standard ferioso, check the back of the codex in the army list. Your argument on grammar if furthermore invalid, because we are not using standard grammar when working within the context of game syntax.

The ferioso is a librarian just like Mephiston is a librarian and just like a librarian has a psychic hood (detailed in the librarians unit force section) so does the ferioso librarian have a psychic hood.

Arguing he is not a librarian is just silly, and douchey. *yep pathos has more effect in the real world than in a debate classroom!
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




No, it is not douchy. Or are you claiming that Flamestorm cannon should be TL when vulkan is present, because theyre a bit like a flamer? Thats the argument you are presenting here.

A F.L. IS a *l*ibrarian, just not a *L*ibrarian. The upgrade is to a "Furioso Librarian",
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Furioso Librarian is a "Librarian". Both rules and fluff support it.
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





Fragile wrote:Furioso Librarian is a "Librarian". Both rules and fluff support it.

Not that I disagree with you, but making assertions like that without citing rules support means very little.

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Utah

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, it is not douchy. Or are you claiming that Flamestorm cannon should be TL when vulkan is present, because theyre a bit like a flamer? Thats the argument you are presenting here.

A F.L. IS a *l*ibrarian, just not a *L*ibrarian. The upgrade is to a "Furioso Librarian",


There is a huge difference between using a general term, Flamer weapons, and naming specific weapons that are allowed to benefit from a rule. The rule was written before they classified Flamer weapons as a specific type of weapon so your argument is false. No the Flamestorm Cannon does not follow Vulkan's rule because it is not listed. They chose to include all weapons but that does not mean that they had to, that is just your view of it.

A Librarian is a Librarian. Librarians have psychic hoods, non-librarians do not. Unless you can show me where GW tells us the difference between librarians and Librarians your claim has no rules support.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




rigeld2 wrote:
Fragile wrote:Furioso Librarian is a "Librarian". Both rules and fluff support it.

Not that I disagree with you, but making assertions like that without citing rules support means very little.


That is true, but its mostly reiterating what was already said.

FAQ. "A Blood Angels Librarian may use....." (psychic powers section") Librarian is not a unit type, that would be Infantry. So that does not discount the FL.

Codex pg 29.. Fluff says its a librarian (which we will ignore). But the FL has a psychic hood. The Hood states. "Declare you will use the psychic hood after an enemy within 24" of the Librarian....." It does not say "within 24" of the Hood". The hood itself declares that the user is a Librarian.





   
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Utah

But since the Furioso is not a Librarian he must not be able to use his hood. Too bad for them. [/sarcasm]
   
Made in ie
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard





Ireland

Captain Antivas wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:No, it is not douchy. Or are you claiming that Flamestorm cannon should be TL when vulkan is present, because theyre a bit like a flamer? Thats the argument you are presenting here.

A F.L. IS a *l*ibrarian, just not a *L*ibrarian. The upgrade is to a "Furioso Librarian",


There is a huge difference between using a general term, Flamer weapons, and naming specific weapons that are allowed to benefit from a rule. The rule was written before they classified Flamer weapons as a specific type of weapon so your argument is false. No the Flamestorm Cannon does not follow Vulkan's rule because it is not listed. They chose to include all weapons but that does not mean that they had to, that is just your view of it.

A Librarian is a Librarian. Librarians have psychic hoods, non-librarians do not. Unless you can show me where GW tells us the difference between librarians and Librarians your claim has no rules support.


Haven't flamers, heavy flamers and incinerators been called flamer types since 3rd ed? Or is that just what people call them colloquially?

It's not the size of the blade, it's how you use it.
2000+
1500+
2000+

For all YMDC arguements remember: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vbd3E6tK2U

My blog: http://dublin-spot-check.blogspot.ie/ 
   
Made in us
Furious Raptor




Fort Worth, TX

Fragile wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Fragile wrote:Furioso Librarian is a "Librarian". Both rules and fluff support it.

Not that I disagree with you, but making assertions like that without citing rules support means very little.


That is true, but its mostly reiterating what was already said.

FAQ. "A Blood Angels Librarian may use....." (psychic powers section") Librarian is not a unit type, that would be Infantry. So that does not discount the FL.

Codex pg 29.. Fluff says its a librarian (which we will ignore). But the FL has a psychic hood. The Hood states. "Declare you will use the psychic hood after an enemy within 24" of the Librarian....." It does not say "within 24" of the Hood". The hood itself declares that the user is a Librarian.


Nice catch.

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Made in gb
Knight of the Inner Circle






wow rhisbgot heated really fast...

not to make enemies here (sure i have a coupke)

but it seems that the sensiblebpeople in this argument say that the the furioso librarean is infact a librarean... but because its in debate ill run it by whoever i olay before hand.

secondly...

vulkan rules are basic. stop trying to complicate them and use them to your point.

everyone knows (or iq is too low to play thi sgame) what wepons vulkans rules work for. therefore a thread like this would not be needed for them so contrasting a flame storm cannon to a furioso is not a good argument.

i may not have a higher english degree but i run a sucessful sales company. i know how to argue and your not going to win the argument by pointing out that one codex entry uses a capital L then the next uses lower case.

i was reading age of darkness today and one word missed an S off the end of it. this S would have made Iron Warrior plural. but it didnt make sense singular. so it must have been plural.

i didnt make a fuss. i added the S in my mind and carried on..

is it well known that the warhammer codexs and novels are written and have typibg errors?

yes.

so lets drop the podantics about nouns guys...


HOWEVER THANKYOU FOR ALL YOUR HELP and it really is a hoot reading what youvguys argue about ;-)

ps. apologies for my bad spelling/impropper grammer. im typing on a touch screen phone quickly and its abit rubbish... wouldnt want to slit your wrists over me spelling librarian wrongly.....

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