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hi there

I had a weird challenge situation the other day with a friend of mine, I was playing Eldar, he was playing Grey Knights.

his dreadknight issued a challenge to Yriel, who was involved in a combat with purifiers, paladins, Striking Scorpions, and Dire Avengers.
the dreadknight was in base to base with Yriel, but also with two dire avengers who were within unit coherency with the exarch. I said
"okay my exarch accepts the challenge since I have the last say"

my friend stated that "since Yriel isn't attached to a squad, he's his own unit and he can't refuse my challenge to him"
and proceeded to take Yriel out of the combat. I argued that you can't target a specific model, just the enemy at large and see who advances like it says
in the rule book, but it doesn't clarify what that means for multiple combats.

This ended up costing me the game as Yriel was busy fighting the dreadknight and the rest of the grey knight units over whelmed my
dire avenger squad and Striking Scorpion exarch so he couldn't kill the enemy units like he should have.

Is this a legal movement, or is it a misinterpretation of the rules?
Any help would be very appreciated

have a good one!

I do believe a dreadknights is not a character and there for cant issue a challage. But could be wtong

Steel Angel wrote:I do believe a dreadknights is not a character and there for cant issue a challage. But could be wtong

Pretty sure they are. But I'm not sure on the actual OP, sorry.

Units that consist of single characters cannot refuse challenges. Even though Yriel was involved in a multiple combat, if he had not joined another unit then what your opponent did was fine.

boggy is correct, if he did not join with one of your other eldar squads, he CAN be singled out as he is a unit of one. Now for example if he was in the squad of avengers, he would have to issue the challenge to the avenger squad if he was wanting to fight Yriel (of course you could accept with him or the exarch).

Concerning the Dreadknight, I dont know whether he is a character or not. I would think he would be, but if not he couldnt have issue the challenge.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/280663.page

Moving to YMDC.

I do not know Eldar units, but if the Dreadknight was in BTB with 2 different units, then any char from either unit could accept his challenge. He cannot target a challenge (pg. 64 Accepting a challenge) and you have final say of who gets to accept.

Challenge rules do not really address multi-unit close combats really well.

It is one multiple combat

Any person involved in the combat that is eligible can accept the challenge

This isnt Yriel refusing,t his is an exarch accepting.

Id also like to point out that Yuriel was within Coherency of a unit when you moved him into that combat, you would have had to have chosen a squadron that he was attached to at that point.

As stated, you never challenge a model, only make a challenge.

The player who did not challenge can either accept with any character engaged in the combat, or refuse and the challenger decides who is moved to the back.

Any character engaged in the combat could accept the challenge, no matter where they were. So the Scorpion Exarch could also have accepted, if there was one.

Xzerios wrote:Id also like to point out that Yuriel was within Coherency of a unit when you moved him into that combat, you would have had to have chosen a squadron that he was attached to at that point.

Not true, unless you have a rule allowing you to join units outside of the movement phase?

nosferatu1001 wrote:It is one multiple combat

Any person involved in the combat that is eligible can accept the challenge

This isnt Yriel refusing,t his is an exarch accepting.

Very good point. I was thinking of it as issuing a challenge to a unit, not the combat as a whole. Not sure which way I'd call this now.....

You issue a challenge to the enemy side in the combat

You dont issue it TO a model, but the enemy "side", however many units that may be
There is no call to be made, the rules are clear on this.

You can verbally challenge a specific model, however that model does not necessarily have to be the one to accept the challenge. So where Chapter Master Bob is bad-mouthing Steve the Warboss' Momma, it could be that Joe the Nob is the one who steps up to the challenge.

As long as there was another character in the unit on the Eldar side you could have elected to have that character accept the challenge (since you can choose any character within the combat to accept the challenge).

However if there was no other character on the Eldar side and jYriel was not attached to another unit, he would have been forced to accept the challenge as he would be a unit of one (who can not refuse a challenge as your opponent mentioned).

hello!

first off, thanks to everyone for your answers and clarifications!
I'm gonna go with the majority and rule that you can challenge the combat at large as
that makes more sense to me than being able to target something specific.

and to clarify with Xzerios, I made it clear with my opponent that Yriel was on his own before I made the charge as he had left the Striking
Scorpion squad before charging so he could use his Fleet Of Foot rerolls for his charging distance, the only place
he could charge where nobody was in base contact with my opponent's units was in between the 3 scorpions and 9 DAs.
by in coherency I mean he was right next to the DA squad, and was in base contact with one of the dire avengers.
he couldn't in the squad as it was in the assault phase. I hope that cleared any confusion up

Ok the Nemisis Dreadknight is a character. However when the NDK charged in and was in base with two separate units he (the eldar) player has the right to accept with either unit in base contact so yes you could have accepted with the exarch and continued fighting with uriel... Just as intended.

An NDK cannot charge in and base two separate units, as the first model to be moved MUST move against the primary.

nosferatu1001 wrote:An NDK cannot charge in and base two separate units, as the first model to be moved MUST move against the primary.

They could, it'd just be really hard.

2 units, offset slightly. Only angle of approach for the farther unit is to be in base to the closer one. Declare charge on the farther unit. Base both.

As per page 28, you are only given permission to charge into the Primary unit, meaning the shortest route cannot include basing any other unit

If this is the only route open, the charge must fail as there is no possible route that follows all the rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:As per page 28, you are only given permission to charge into the Primary unit, meaning the shortest route cannot include basing any other unit

If this is the only route open, the charge must fail as there is no possible route that follows all the rules.

Actually, that phrase doesn't disallow it. Rereading it however shows "remaining models" can charge the secondary units, which means you're right, but not the way you thought you were.