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So, Forgeworld has released some Necron Canoptek Acanthrites for advance order, and I wondered what people thought of them (both the models and the experimental rules)?

The models seem smaller than GW's Canoptek Wraiths, unless my scaling isn't great It looks like they're designed as tank-busters, perhaps 'upgraded' versions of the Canoptek Scarabs in that respect...

The model looks interesting(but kinda spendy), they really are just an anti tank version of the wraiths.

Ya know what the Necrons really do not need? More anti-tank.

Ya where the Necrons really do not need to put that superfluous unit? The FA slot.

If these were in the Elite slot, they'd be a great alternative to using Praetorians. But as-is, I would completely pass over them as a solution to a problem that nobody has.

seems insanely overpowered.

T5, 3+ save, melta guns, 3W each, rending, jump pack infantry, for only 45 points a model? Holy crap?

Horst wrote:seems insanely overpowered.

T5, 3+ save, melta guns, 3W each, rending, jump pack infantry, for only 45 points a model? Holy crap?

And yet, they are still pointless. Sure, they may seem awesome, but they have NO purpose.

McNinja wrote:

Horst wrote:seems insanely overpowered.

T5, 3+ save, melta guns, 3W each, rending, jump pack infantry, for only 45 points a model? Holy crap?

AMD yet, they are still pointless. Sure, they may seem awesome, but they have NO purpose.

What does that say about the necron codex then, that a super powerful unit is presented, and people are like... meh, screw it, I don't care. I'm good.

They look interesting enough.

Necron players might consider them in a 2k+ game where they have 6 FA slots to play with. Or if they want to load up on Tesla instead of Gauss.

I don't like the name, it doesn't role off the tongue very well. Looks cool though.

Horst wrote:

McNinja wrote:

Horst wrote:seems insanely overpowered.

T5, 3+ save, melta guns, 3W each, rending, jump pack infantry, for only 45 points a model? Holy crap?

AMD yet, they are still pointless. Sure, they may seem awesome, but they have NO purpose.

What does that say about the necron codex then, that a super powerful unit is presented, and people are like... meh, screw it, I don't care. I'm good.

Super powerful? Not really. It's main role, anti-tank, is filled by our basic troops. We don't need a model with 3 wounds and a 3+ armor save, because we have a 2 wound model with a 3+ invuln save. They are not superior to Wraiths, since both are Jump Infantry, and Wraiths ignore difficult terrain. They simply do not fill any niche in the army that cannot be filled by something else for cheaper.

I always like FW's take on the Necrons. Killing machines devoid of human form. Much better then the Egyptians in Space and noble warrior vibe you get from Wards Necron designs.

Really if I ever make a Necron army I'm going to go with the machine angle as much as possible over the Egyptian/warrior one. Deathmark heads for Warriors/Immortals, lots of Wraiths/Spyders/Scarabs, fused Necron torsos as Barge/Ark drivers, FW models, and so on. So this works well for me.

A while ago I converted a box of Wraiths into Spyders, and had a bunch of parts left over, so when I saw these I thought I'd have a go at making some...

^ They look pretty cool! I guess it's cheaper than Forgeworld, and easier too

I might consider getting these, as I (believe it or not) actually have a bit of a lacking for anti-tank in my army. Probably because I have more Immortals than Warriors...
If I'm right, a basic squad of these Acanthrites get a 12" move, then three 12" Melta attacks, followed by 3 Hammer of Wrath attacks, and finished with 9 Rending, Entropic Strike attacks, all in one turn. For 135 points. That sure is appealing, although I'd rather a 3+ invulnerable save than 3 Wounds, I guess that's FW's way of further differentiating them from Wraiths.

The rules are pretty cool, but the models are so stupid looking. I get the SPESS EEGIPTS aesthetic to Necrons, but the Canoptek unit = machine bug is pretty annoying. I like 3 that are in the codex just fine, but these are superfluous.

The FW model is an attempt to make a jack of all trades of the Necron FA choices. FW unfortunately made it a confused unit which doesn't know if it's supposed to be a Wraith, Scarab, or Destroyer. However a close look at it's stats and wargear seems to indicate that it's supposed to be a Canoptek version of a destroyer. Let's take a look:

Statline between Destroyer and Acanthrites: very similar, Acanthrite does benefit from having W3 as opposed to the destroyer's W1 and A2 as opposed to destroyer's A1.
Also, they're both jump infantry.

Wargear between Destroyer and Acanthrites: Both have or have access to some nifty anti-tank. Against the gauss cannon, the cutting beam seemingly is better with it's S6 AP2 as opposed to the gauss cannon's S5 AP3. HOWEVER, the cutting beam lacks the glancing capabilities of gauss and doesn't benefit from melta outside of 6 inches. Also, the gauss cannon benefits from a significantly higher volume of shots than the cutting beam. And destroyers have access to the heavy gauss cannon which is a frighteningly powerful gun. Sure it also doesn't benefit from Melta, but has even a longer range. It's debatable, but I feel that the gauss weaponry of the destroyers beats out the cutting beams of the Acanthrites, YMMV.

However the Acanthrites do benefit from Rending and Entropic Strike in CC from their voidblades which all in all puts them above the Destroyers in CC. Whether or not this really makes them better than Destroyers in the wargear department (i believe it doesn't, in 6th I feel solid shooting kinda triumphs the CC capabilities of the Acanthrites), you decide. Anyway, their CC aspect is where we get to compare them to Wraiths and Scarabs. But that's another discussion.

Special Rules between Destroyers and Acanthrites: So... Preferred Enemy: Everything! and Reanimation Protocols or Fearless and Stealth... For an armor hunting unit, Fearless doesn't seem all that applicable (You could argue that they have what it takes to duke it out in CC as a dedicated assault unit like Wraiths but IMO W3 with a 3+ doesn't even compare to the survivability of W2 with a 3++, but then again I digress as this is Acanthrites vs Destroyers). Stealth is very, very nice for survivability but let's look at Destroyers. PE: Everything! makes Destroyers that much more killy against armor as well as your meatbags which is always lovely. RP also boosts the survivability of Destroyers (though not to the same level as Acanthrites) but factor in their unit type plus the range of their weaponry, it makes them pretty decent.

Commander Jimbob wrote:^ They look pretty cool! I guess it's cheaper than Forgeworld, and easier too

I might consider getting these, as I (believe it or not) actually have a bit of a lacking for anti-tank in my army. Probably because I have more Immortals than Warriors...
If I'm right, a basic squad of these Acanthrites get a 12" move, then three 12" Melta attacks, followed by 3 Hammer of Wrath attacks, and finished with 9 Rending, Entropic Strike attacks, all in one turn. For 135 points. That sure is appealing, although I'd rather a 3+ invulnerable save than 3 Wounds, I guess that's FW's way of further differentiating them from Wraiths.

you do not get the hammer of wrath attacks if you move 12".

And these guys would be awesome elites, but not fast attackers.

I'd have to agree, we necrons do not lack anti tank weapons.
Also, how does one come across rules for forge world stats?

Szeras wrote:I'd have to agree, we necrons do not lack anti tank weapons.
Also, how does one come across rules for forge world stats?

Stats for these buggers are here: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/a/acanthrite.pdf

As for other FW models, some have experimental rules (like these buggers) that are available on their page via the Experimental Rules link. Others you have to get from a corresponding IA (Imperial Armor) volume.

In any other codex these things would be amazing. In the necron codex they have no purpose. Now if they make some kind of canoptek HQ that would be cool. Then you could field an entire army with the concept of a tomb still asleep. I have already done a "fluffy" game using the same concept. I used a counts as szeras as my HQ, with the buffed up immortals representing his personal guard. Kept him in reserve to show he isn't quite awake yet and that the canopteks are waking up a lower ranked lord first to defend the hive and not the overlord. I played with a 1000 point army vs my friends 2000. But every turn after turn 2 would spawn 10 man warrior squads. we had it so that the amount of squads spawned was equal to the turn number.

Kind of ranting and getting off topic there. But I am really looking forward to the next imperial armour so we can see the new necron stuff they release. I bet it will be some seriously amazing stuff. And hopefully my friend and I can relive our scenario battle again.

King Pariah wrote:

Szeras wrote:I'd have to agree, we necrons do not lack anti tank weapons.
Also, how does one come across rules for forge world stats?

Stats for these buggers are here: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/a/acanthrite.pdf

As for other FW models, some have experimental rules (like these buggers) that are available on their page via the Experimental Rules link. Others you have to get from a corresponding IA (Imperial Armor) volume.

There's also a bunch of rules avaible for free on their download section, not only as Experimental Rules, and said section is still being updated.

IcedAnimals wrote:In any other codex these things would be amazing. In the necron codex they have no purpose. Now if they make some kind of canoptek HQ that would be cool. Then you could field an entire army with the concept of a tomb still asleep. I have already done a "fluffy" game using the same concept. I used a counts as szeras as my HQ, with the buffed up immortals representing his personal guard. Kept him in reserve to show he isn't quite awake yet and that the canopteks are waking up a lower ranked lord first to defend the hive and not the overlord. I played with a 1000 point army vs my friends 2000. But every turn after turn 2 would spawn 10 man warrior squads. we had it so that the amount of squads spawned was equal to the turn number.

Kind of ranting and getting off topic there. But I am really looking forward to the next imperial armour so we can see the new necron stuff they release. I bet it will be some seriously amazing stuff. And hopefully my friend and I can relive our scenario battle again.

That is a pretty epic scenario, mind if I borrow the idea for my own games?

They are one of the most hideously overpowered units Forgeworld has ever put out.

Compare them on survivability to a Thunderwulf. A extra wound and stealth for 5 points *less*. And you can take them in units of 9.

They move as jump infantry, so they move quickly. They can use melta weapons on vehicles *and* still charge them with rending, entropic weapons. A unit of Acanthrites multicharging some vehicles will destroy all of them easily.

No tanks? 9 S6 AP2 weapons at BS4 will kill any MEQ unit dead. Any survivors will just get charged and pulled down. The only thing they're not good against is hordes and, well, the rest of a Necron army doesn't exactly struggle with hordes.

Honestly, if not for the fact they're going to get nerfed and cost a fortune in resin, I see no reason to take anything else in the fast attack slot for Necrons. Even scarabs, previously the kings of the FA slot pale in comparison. 3 units of 9 will ruin most army's days.

Can you still deep strike Jump Infantry in 6th? If so look out, here comes a whole bunch of Meltas...

Vindicators for you marine lovers, problem solved.

They are one of the most hideously overpowered units Forgeworld has ever put out.

Quite and Over-exaggeration here.

Compare them on survivability to a Thunderwulf. A extra wound and stealth for 5 points *less*. And you can take them in units of 9.

Compare their attack power to Thunderwolves. Thunderwolves have +1 Strength, +3 attacks, and grenades. Thunderwolves have significantly more attack power on the charge, which is what they are for.

They move as jump infantry, so they move quickly. They can use melta weapons on vehicles *and* still charge them with rending, entropic weapons. A unit of Acanthrites multicharging some vehicles will destroy all of them easily

.
So will a unit of Scarabs, or Wraiths. They are just doing what they are designed to do.

No tanks? 9 S6 AP2 weapons at BS4 will kill any MEQ unit dead. Any survivors will just get charged and pulled down. The only thing they're not good against is hordes and, well, the rest of a Necron army doesn't exactly struggle with hordes.

Yes, the 405 point unit you are comparing, will kill MEQs dead. Big Surprise.

Honestly, if not for the fact they're going to get nerfed and cost a fortune in resin, I see no reason to take anything else in the fast attack slot for Necrons. Even scarabs, previously the kings of the FA slot pale in comparison. 3 units of 9 will ruin most army's days.

Alright, let's take some deep breaths. For one, 3 units of 9 will cost nearly 1500 points. You would never see that, except in Apocalypse. Scarabs will still kill vehicles better, and can hold their own in combat very well, since the loss of fearless Wounds. Wraiths are certienly still quite viable, as they are more combat oriented, with their S6, more attacks, and Things like whipcoils.

Honestly, I think you're overreacting quite a bit here. Until you start testing them on the tabletop (Which I plan to do) you should probably relax a bit.

Horst wrote:What does that say about the necron codex then, that a super powerful unit is presented, and people are like... meh, screw it, I don't care. I'm good.

I think the point is that they are awesome at what they do, but don't offer value in a broader sense.

The trouble is that they are over-specialised... they're good at killing armour, but necrons already have units that can kill armour but are much more versatile. This doesn't mean that Necrons are over-powered, simply that because we can already nail tnaks pretty well, we don't need another anti-tank specialist. A khorne daemon army has CC covered pretty well... but no one would suggest they were overpowered just because FW released some CC monster that was over-priced.

I think their potential is in a TEQ heavy environment. At the moment, I'm considering using Praetorians with Rods for their anti-TEQ potential. But I think the melta shots would be even more effective in this regard. 12" shooting range is better than 6"... you can sit on 12" and shoot, and there's still the possibility of a failed charge next turn.

DexKivuli wrote:

Horst wrote:What does that say about the necron codex then, that a super powerful unit is presented, and people are like... meh, screw it, I don't care. I'm good.

I think the point is that they are awesome at what they do, but don't offer value in a broader sense.

The trouble is that they are over-specialised... they're good at killing armour, but necrons already have units that can kill armour but are much more versatile. This doesn't mean that Necrons are over-powered, simply that because we can already nail tnaks pretty well, we don't need another anti-tank specialist. A khorne daemon army has CC covered pretty well... but no one would suggest they were overpowered just because FW released some CC monster that was over-priced.

I think their potential is in a TEQ heavy environment. At the moment, I'm considering using Praetorians with Rods for their anti-TEQ potential. But I think the melta shots would be even more effective in this regard. 12" shooting range is better than 6"... you can sit on 12" and shoot, and there's still the possibility of a failed charge next turn.

I think A lot of people are really overestimating their CC ability as well. I ran a test game with these, and they were marvelous at Anti-tank. They really flubbed for the most part in close combat. If they get charged, they are pretty much done for. It takes a long time to whittle them down, but with half their attacks missing, they really don't do much.

Overall, I'd rather take 3-4 than a Scarab Swarm, but they aren't must takes by any means.