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Title says it all.

Is there such a thing and what is the general config of it?

HQ
Haemonculi
Ancient Haemonculi
Urien

Elites
Grotesques

Troops
Wracks

Fast
Add to taste as they are mostly mercenaries

Heavy
Talos
Chronos

From that list, it doesn't look very competitive.

Not really.

They will look awesome as they die though.

Since the death of the WWP assault, pure coven armies are really thoroughly non-competitive. I run one.

My list is usually:

HQ

Urien
3 haemonculi, incl one ancient

Troops

wracks units x 6 (in transports.. usually raiders)

Elites

Grotesques x 3 units (in raiders these days, as there is really no real way to get a WWP somewhwre useful in time. )

FA - Scourges x 3 units (Haemonculi modded DE after all... )

HS

Pain engines x 3



Unless you add in some allies, or other DE non-coven elements, the Coven is basically fethed from the get go.

Ok, there goes my idea lol.

Yes. They do exist.

First step - Don't take Urien! He costs as much as 3 regular Haems.
Second step - Dont take Haemonculi Ancients! They're +30pts for not a lot extra.
Next - Troops! Troops everywhere. I honestly need to get more wracks atm.

Anyway - the general build for a competitive Coven requires everything to be as optimised as possible.
Realise that 90% of the time a Venom Blade is better than just about every other option for CCWs.
The remaining times it'll be Agonisers. Huskblades, Flesh Gauntlets, Scissorhands, etc cost more and will ultimately cause less wounds.
Liquifier Guns are your awesome little friends.

HQs:
Base Haemonculi only.
They should generally cost 65pts, either with a Liquifier Gun and Venom Blade -or- a Hex Rifle.

Elites:
I've been running Grotesques in squads of 3-4, with a Liquifier Gun and an Aberration boasting a Venom Blade.
Put a Liquifier Gun / Venom Blade Haemonculi in with them to lead the squad.
Put them in a Raider so they can get there quickly.

Troops:
10 Wracks with 2 Liquifiers an Acothyst w/ Venom Blade in a Raider -OR- 3 Wracks with an Acothyst boasting a Hex Rifle in a Venom. If wanted add a Hex Rifle Haem to these squads.
The 10 man squads are good at both smashing into enemy troops and holding objectives.
The 3 man squads generally take shots and hold objectives. People tend to ignore these squads because it's 3 men with 1 shot. Ultimately it's a cheap venom, and a hex rifle that is quite capable of taking out MCs quite easily.

Fast Attack:
I don't generally use these, but if I do I generally take Scourges with Haywire Blasters.

Heavy Support:
Ah, Heavy Support, how I love thee... so many great options so little space - though now being able to take 6 at 2000pts is nice...
Anyway - 2 Talos ran with a Twin-Linked Liquifier Gun and TL Haywire Blaster and a Razorwing with Lances, Monoscythes and Flickers is my favourite choice.
Though 2 Talos and a Ravager would likely work too.

My 1500pt list through all of 5th since the new DE codex came out was:
2x Haem (LG+VB) leading a squad of 3 Grotesques (LG+Aw/VB) in a Raider each
2x 10 Wracks (2LG+Aw/VB) in Raiders
2x 3 Wracks (Aw/HR) in Venoms
2x Talos (TLLG+TLHB)
Razorwing (DL+SC+MS+FF+NS)
And I won roughly 95% of my games.

I need to reoptimise my Coven list for 6th as Grotesques don't seem as durable, but once I've got it down I'll happily post my findings here.
I'll probably run something closer to my Tournament Winning Coven list which will be running 6 troops slots full of wracks.

I was talking pure Coven, rather than a hybrid with a coven theme.

Technically Scourges aren't Coven either, i guess, but they are the closest fluff-wise to them, as they are surgically altered. I use them in my builds for this reason, though my non-fluffy lists are more given to Beastmasters and Reavers.

Ravagers and Razorwings aren't coven units, but if you add them to a coven they do improve it's efficiency, as i said above, Allies and non-coven units can make a coven-based list work, but a pure coven list doesn't work so well.



Out of interest, how are you delivering your Pain engines to the enemy? If you are walking them they are slow, short ranged and die easily to missile launchers and up. As the list is light on tanks and other hard targets they will attract a lot of fire.

If you deliver them in 6th via WWP they can't assault, and are prime targets for being shot after they fire off their tail gun and/or liquifier. The WWP had better be in place on turn 1 (ie 6-12'' from your deployment zone ) as it can't be used from inside a vehicle, and reserves come in on turn 2 on a 3+ these days. They will most likely be walking on before you get a chance to WWP them in.


I've been using Urien partly because he's a laugh in challenges (ignore several hits, regrow wounds..), but mostly because, unlike a regular haemy, he hands out d3 extra pain tokens at the start of the game to wrack/Grot units (so you don't need an attendant Haemy to babysit them for FC) and allows you to make Grotesques S6 for peanuts.

That extra pip of Strength makes a big difference to their damage output, for me, and leaves the haemies to babysit the grotesques, so they don't go insane and explode.

Raiders with enhanced aethersails zooming upfield works to a degree in getting them there, if you don't mind losing all the raiders by the end of turn 2.

I'm also curious which armies you are playing against.

Some are far nastier to a Coven build than others. IG, for example, are fething brutal. Hydras down the raiders, then massed fire and pieplates down everything else.

Ascalam wrote:I was talking pure Coven, rather than a hybrid with a coven theme.

Technically Scourges aren't Coven either, i guess, but they are the closest fluff-wise to them, as they are surgically altered. I use them in my builds for this reason, though my non-fluffy lists are more given to Beastmasters and Reavers.

Ravagers and Razorwings aren't coven units, but if you add them to a coven they do improve it's efficiency, as i said above, Allies and non-coven units can make a coven-based list work, but a pure coven list doesn't work so well.

I mostly had the Razorwing because it looked cool initially (though I could run 3 Talos if wanted). Now it's so I can deal with flyers.

Out of interest, how are you delivering your Pain engines to the enemy? If you asre walking them they are slow, short ranges and die easily to missile launchers and up.

Yes, they walk. They're basically a force modifier. People either go all out against the Talos, or ignore them. Either the rest of the army gets to do what it wants, or the Talos get there. They scare people and that's what counts.


If you deliver them in 6th via WWP they can't assault, and are prime targets for being shot after they fire off their tail gun and/or liquifier. The WWP had better be in place on turn 1 (ie 6'' from your deployment zone ) as it can't be used from inside a vehicle, and reserves come in on turn 2 on a 3+ these days. They will most likely be walking on before you get a chance to WWP them in.

Again, them being Prime Targets is the point - they draw fire from everything else.

I've been using Urien partly because he's a laugh in challenges (ignore several hits, regrow wounds..), but mostly because, unlike a regular haemy, he hads out d3 extra pain tokens at the start of the game to wrack units (so you don't need an attendant Haemy to babysit them for FC) and allows you to make Grotesques S6 for peanuts.

That extra pip of Strength makes a big difference to their damage output, for me, and leaves the haemies to babysit the grotesques, so they don't go insane and explode.

That's an extra 15-50pts per squad on an already very expensive unit.
Also, Rakarth provides an extra 2-4 Pain Tokens, averaging at 3. OR you take 3 Haems for a garunteed 3 tokens and get improved damage output.

Raiders with enhanced aethersails zooming upfield works to a degree in getting them there, if you don't mind losing all the raiders by the end of turn 2.

I don't use the Aethersails, never have...

I'm also curious which armies you are playing against.

Some are far nastier to a Coven build than others. IG, for example, are fething brutal. Hydras down the raiders, then massed fire and pieplates down everything else.

I've played pretty much everyone with my Coven... there's actually a nice spread of players locally...
Blood Angels, Chaos Daemons, Chaos Space Marines, other Dark Eldar (that didn't actually end well), Eldar, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Necrons, Orks, Sisters of Battle, Space Marines, Space Wolves, Tau Empire and Tyranids.
I've had problems with 6+ Dreadnought lists, 1 of the IG lists I played against was a tough game, but I edged out ahead... and of course the other dark eldar list which was a venomspam list.

Ultimately, it might not be for everyone, but that's the list I've used and have done very well with.

Fair enough.

Mine was a WWP insertion army, and so got a bit of a hosing.

My main problem with the Pain Engines are that they are an expensive HS choice that can die to bolter fire.

Both only have 3 wounds and 3+ armour.

A single turn with, lets say, 2 units of lootas will see 2 pain engines dead barely out of your deployment zone, unless you have very beneficial cover. They don't start with FNP, and you can't grant it to them from Haemonculi.

The odds get worse when you are up against Longfangs/Devs. (as they are AP 3 and wounding you on 3's)

The Pain engines aren't much of a threat, to be honest, barring some good scenery to stealth along. The enemy doesn't really need to go all out against them, as they go down depressingly easily. I've lost them to a singe round of shooting from a tau fire warrior unit, from clear across the battlefield. There is rather a lot of AP 3, S 6 + weaponry out there, and for some armies they can spam it like there is no tommorrow, while still having a very beefy rest-of-the-army to contend with.

If it works for you, then awesome. Massive props for you

My local club tend to congratulate me for brining the awesome looking models, then kill them at range on turn 1 before mopping up the raiders full of wracks and grotesqes before they can dismount.

That's the thing though - They shouldn't be scared of them, I know that - you know that... for some reason, no one else ever seems to.. xD

Because people get scared of the S 7, T 7, 3 W Monstrous Creature, they damn near piss themselves over it...
Hell, I've played people that are so fearful of them, they'll pour all of their Anti Tank Firepower into it, more often than not effectively ignoring my raiders / venoms.
In some cases, they've never even actually had to deal with the Talos as they spend 2-3 turns puring firepower into them... and the few times they do make it to the enemy they normally make their target evaporate, seemingly reinforcing this fear of MCs people have...

1 is not that big a threat, but 2 together is quite durable, and usually gives me carte blanche to do as I please with the rest of the army.

I might give walking them a shot again, but most of my local players don't really get too afraid of them.

Oddly enough, when i run Cronos people react like you describe, maybe because of the tentacles... Regular old Talos just get an approving nod, and then a face full of lascannons/missiles/rokkits/Splinter fire..

You should put the tentacles on the Talos, then!

I have other uses for my tentacles *evil mad scientist laugh*

If i'm just running them as intimidation targets and bullet soaks i'll run Cronos with no upgrades. They are a sight cheaper than Talos.

I prefer them to actually DO something in game other than catch Lascannon shots, but with the WWP nerf that's unlikely

Ascalam wrote:I prefer them to actually DO something in game other than catch Lascannon shots, but with the WWP nerf that's unlikely

I will be honest, when I ran 3 talos, 2 talos or whatever, the Talos didn't automatically make it into cc straight out of the portal - perhaps 30% of the time but it wasn't a "given". In fact, I do not remember any instance where all 3 of my Talos assault straight out of the portal and maybe once I think I got 2 of them in but it was rare. Sure, losing the assault out of the portal was a severe kick to the nutsack but I think it hurt the softer T3 units like wyches and hellions more than a Talos. Heck, often times I ended up using the Talos's twin-linked heat lance to pop a raider and usually had to let the wyches and hellions have at them and only if there was room for the talos did it actually get to assault (If there was ever a unit that can take an oncoming shooting phase it was the talos).

I will also comment on the art of placing your portals so the units emerging have a place to go when they do enter the game and when all else failed it was the Talos that was actually providing the screen for the more softer units anyway.

So I sum it up like this:

In 5th the Talos entered the game through portal and was most likely going to get shot at before it got into assault (remember, no fleet and semi-smart opponents knew to stay clear of the portal anyway).

Or

In 6th the Talos entered the game through the portal and is going to get shot at before it gets into assault anyway (not to mention overwatch as well).

What you can count on though when you use a portal is that the Talos will be in range to shoot something and usually it is a target rich environment. So much so that I gave up the chainflails for the twin-linked liquifier and never looked back (and now you can't assault you can at least toast something and shoot it again with a heat lance. In this set up, it is geared for any kind of target that might be stupid enough to be close to the portal and not to mention that if you are into haywire blasters, you now got it twin-linked with enough distance to hit anything on the board once it emerges from the portal.

The portal ain't dead, just still double overed from the kick to the groin. Re-tool your order of battle, understand units can still shoot once they emerge out of the portal (or bladevane from bikes) and deal with it.

And how are you to get the Portal there, before turn 2?

Turn 2, your reserves start coming in on 3+ .

Chances are you will have them show up before you can get a portal anywhere useful.

I used to deliver it by moving a raider 12, disembarking and then dropping the portal turn 1, 18'' into the field.

Can't do that any more. Best you can hope for is 12'' from your deployment zone. (6'' move, 6 disembark).

The other option was to deepstrike a vehicle, hop out and drop one. You still can do this, but odds are your reserve units will already have walked on from your table edge.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic here. I honestly would like to know how you get the WWP close enough to do any good before your reserves have to arrive.

Well, one of my favorite deathstars is a coven unit.

Let me start by saying that "pure" anything is going to be disadvantaged, becuase you are arbitrarily cutting yourself off from tools that you might need.

But i really like the grotstar. Here is how I rig mine, and how I think you might be able to get something somewhat competitive out of it.

10x grotesques 1x liquifier gun 1x aberration with flesh gauntlet
at least two haemonculus with liquifier gun flesh gauntlet and venom blade (I take a shattershard on one of them because of what it can do to cleverly placed face-tank ICs)

I don't see many people take the flesh gauntlet, but I love it, particularly paired with a venom blade. I either choose to use it with the haemonculus, and become choppy with the venom blade, or when fighting single wound people, use the venom blade and the gauntlet makes me choppy. Believe me, multi-wound death stars are everywhere, nobs, wraiths, paladins, carnifex. And failing a flesh gauntlet save is trouble for them.

If I were to go full-on coven for fun and profit, I WOULD take Urien, upgrade the grots to strength 6, and I LOVE that he is T5, he can jump right in to a challenge with people with power fists, and he has a flesh gauntlet but better, and his clone field plus auto-regen makes him a great face-tanker for the front row of a grotstar.

From here we have ourselves a perfect jumping off point for a WWP, I'd put two fully loaded talos and a fully loaded cronos in reserve, and I'd just walk some troop wracks around in the back with liquifiers and hexrifles, just waiting to score.

Why doesn't it win? Strength 10 barrage and death rays just shred your models wholesale, and fast vehicles can stay away from you while continually shooting for a long time.

Why is it better than you might think? Its unlikely that most armies can finish off the grotstar in 5 turns, particularly if they had to start shooting at three monstrous creatures starting on turn 2. That means that you will be able to do some great contesting, you have a good shot at first blood, you WILL get linebreaker, and you can protect your warlord fairly well.

Give it a try as proxies, it is very fun, and will most likely SMASH anyone casual just looking for fun. Expect the MCs to die, and don't expect to do a lot of killing, do expect to do a lot of surviving, and you REALLY need to learn how wound allocation and look out sir abuse works in oder to keep your grotstar alive. Its a good 6th edition trainer actually. If you play your cards right and they don't have barrage or tons of precision strike/shots, they'll have to deal around 24 unsaved and unfeel no pained wounds to make you remove a model from the unit. If Urien's upgrade made them T6 instead of strength 6, this would be a top tier strategy.

In my first 6th ed game, I used the portal. Game type was Relic with diagonal deployment, so I had my transport start on the edge of the deployment zone. All I had to do was get the portal down near the relic and I had significant control of the board.


Plus: You can have two (or more) portals. The first, you drop turn one after going 6", disembarking 6" and placing. That's still 12" closer to your enemy if something does come through.

You can meanwhile have another transport go flat out and drop that portal turn 2, giving you multiple options for emerging. It also helps you control the battlefield, 'cos your opponent has to worry about staying away from two possible avenues of attack.

This is admittedly expensive since you can't assault from the portal anymore, but it's not useless.

I'm aware that you can drop a second portal on turn 2, further into the enemy line.

My problem is that my reserves inevitably arrive on turn 2 these days, before you get the opportunity to drop the sucker. They are then forced to deploy at the top of turn 2, either from the WWP in the middle field that you drop turn one, or from your edge. I've yet to have them wait conveniently in reserves until turn 3.

The diagonal deployment does help, but can't really be relied on as being the one you'll be using. If you wind up playing Hammer and Anvil you're not getting anywhere NEAR where you want to be.

I'm not saying its totally useless, but it's not really worth it these days, for me. Not for 35 pts a pop, plus the unit delivering it that will die to shooting after he turns it on.

I've had some success with a shadowfielded archon delivering one 12'' in, and living to tellmn the tale, but the thing has still been pretty heavily gimped.

Well I like the look of a Coven or Coven hybrid list, but I'm looking for something to play in a tournament.

I don't think that it's going to work.