Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So a relatively new player in my group is playing Ultramarines (he'd like to stick to the boys in blue rather than Iron Fists or Salamanders or whatever), but is meeting with limited success. He's going to buy some more stuff soon, and I was going to try to help him figure out a basic army list and make suggestions on what to buy, but I'm a bit iffy on it.

He currently has:
30 Tactical Marines
5 Sniper Scouts
1 Rhino
1 Razorback
1 Predator
1 Vindicator
5 Terminators (AoBR)
1 Librarian (I forget if in terminator armour or Tigurius or what)
1 Captain/Chapter Master
5 Devastators with various weapons
1 Dreadnought (AoBR)
1 Stormtalon
? Drop Pod

I'm thinking another Vindicator or Predator, another transport, definitely some Sternguard, but don't really know where to go from there, or how to outfit the Troops choices.
He likes the idea of Marneas or Cato, but I'm not sure either are worth it. Perhaps Marneas if he gets some assault terminators and a Land Raider. Perhaps Cato leading some Sternguard. Don't really know.

Looking for an outline for a 1999 list or so. Perhaps just a basic framework for a list that can be scaled to the game's points.

Any insight would be quite helpful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does this look even remotely good?

2 Librarians in Power Armour with Force Axes, Epistolaries, with either Pyromancy or Telekinesis
2 Squads of 9 Sternguard Veterans, each with 2 combi-meltas and a Power Fist sarge, in Rhinos (with a librarian in each)
5 Sniper Scouts with Camo Cloaks (find points for Telion?)
2 Squads of 5 Tactical Marines in TL-Las Razorbacks
2 Stormtalons, stock AC/HB
5 Devastators with 4 Plasma Cannons
2 Vindicators (or 2 AC/HB Predators instead?)

I suspect the Troops may be too fragile to hold objectives, and I'm unsure about the Devastators, but I'm not quite sure where to go with it.

It looks like he has a solid core of models to work from. What kind of budget are we talking about? A Land raider full of assault terminators lead by a chaplain or named character can be effective and a lot of fun, but is going to take a lot of cash to buy and build.

Don't forget you can file the names off of special characters and paint them as ultramaines. If you like the rules for Lysander, just kit up a TH/SS terminator with some extra bits, and call him Captain Agemman of the first company. It works better for some character then others, but is actually encouraged in the codex. I prefer to run with generic HQs, but the specials do have some perks (and higher point costs)

Looking at his collection, he's shy on fast attack.
Land speeders add a hearty dose of mobile, flexible firepower. I field one or two in almost every list.
Stormtallons are very nice, Air superiority is important in 6th. Make sure to upgrade the HB to something better vs flyers.

(I'll put in the obligatory magnets are your friend line here)

I like a 5 or 10 man assault squad lead by a chaplain. Depends on what his play style is like, they are overall "meh" but do add an interesting aspect to the army that people don't expect from vanilla marines.

Sternguard are awesome. If you want to field a lot of them, you might want to look at Kantor to make them scoring. I do fine with my one squad of 10. If you field too many, the points add up fast and take away from other places you need them. If cash is an issue, a tac squad with the right paint job makes for good sternguard, but as an Ultramarine player, the tyranic war vets are nice looking mins that fit in well.

Having a regular dread kit with all the options is nice. The AoBR MM dread is fine for a drop pod, but not the best for general use.

Devastators are not the best unit, but the weapons from the box can be handed down to tac squads to give them more options.


A rambling thought on list building for marines:

The solid core of your army should be two full tac squads, in rhinos, plus your HQ of choice. You need to be able to take and hold objectives. 5 men is not going to do that. This will run you about 500 points. You aren't going to be tabling you foes, you need to keep an eye on the missions and victory conditions. Most of the time solid troop picks are going to be the key to that.

I'm a big fan of diverse armies, so the next step is to grab something from the other FoC slots. One moderate pick from each should be another 500 points. In this example, I'll go with a sternguard squad, auto/las pread, and a typhoon/HB speeder.

At this point, you should start looking for any gaps, particularly with your local meta. I also advocate having a troop for every 500 points. If, for example, there is a local necron player terroizing the skis with the death-beam flying croissants, you might want to include a stormtallon, quad gun aegis, and a sniper squad with talion. (It's not just for him, air power is everyones problem these days)

At 1500 points you list should be balanced and ready for anything, so the last 500 is pure preference. What hasn't seen the table in a while? Who has the best paint job? Who was the MVP of the last battle? To fill out my stream of thought, built it as I type list, I'll add a second storm tallon (redundancy is good) tactical terminator squad, and another auto/las pred.

So after all this rambling, not even napkin math list is done, it looks like this:

librarian, no upgrades (gate/null) 100pts

10 sternguard, 2 cmelta, fist. ~300ptss
5 terminators, AC. ~240pts.

10 man tac, MM/M rhino 210
10 man tac ML/F rhino 205
5 man scout, snipers, talion, camo, HB ~150

2x stormtalons AC/Typhoon (don't have the WD for points, think they are about 150ea.) ~300
Typhoon speeder w/HB 90pts.

2x Auto/las Preds 240pts.

Aegis w/quad 100

Roughly 1855 off the top of my head. Enough points left over for a dread, another tank, or a HQ pick. Might be worth having a crunchy captain in terminator armor to help keep the kill the warlord VP safe.

My TL;DR summery: Get a little of everything, build a balanced list, more boys, less toys. Keep an eye on the victory conditions.

Are Lascannons generally favored over Heavy Bolters for AC Predator sponsons? Or does it really depend on what the army needs?

Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:Are Lascannons generally favored over Heavy Bolters for AC Predator sponsons? Or does it really depend on what the army needs?

It depends on the rest of the army. The Dakka predator is dirt cheep, 85 points, vs the auto/las at 120. The Dakka is good for clearing hordes, and blowing very light vehicles up. I generally don't worry about anti-horde shooting, as I don't skimp on my tac squads, and massed bolter fire will get the job done. If I was fielding minimal, or odd troop picks (like outflanking scout squads) I would need the volume of fire the Dakka puts out.

The auto/las is still very reasonably priced, but it does something I don't have: Long range AT fire. For anything but AV14 the autocannon can assist the lascannons. And the LCs can put down anything. With 4 shots going downrange, 2xS7, 2xS9, whatever is getting shot at is going to feel it. It can double as an AA platform. Yes you are snapfireing and need 6s to hit, but with 4 shots you have a chance, and if one of them is the LC, that's a solid hit.

The only Predators I don't like are the extremes. You can field them with no sponsons, and have a 60pt autocannon rolling around behind a AV13 plate, but that seems a waste of the FOC slot. The expensive option based around the TLLC strike me as overpriced. You pay 45 points to replace the wonderfully versatile autocannon. If you are going to spend the entire game hunting hard targets, it might be worth it, but that role is traditionally given to melta units. And if I'm paying that much for a tank, I might as well go all in and buy a land raider.

The Auto/HB "Dakka" Predator does one thing, and does it very well for a very low cost. The Auto/Las Predator fills more roles, that aren't as well covered by default, at a still quite reasonable cost. For me the flexibility wins.

From a modeling standpoint, with the magic of magnets, you can have both. Predator sponsons are probably the easiest thing out there to magnetize. The turret is a lot trickier, and if I buy another one I'll probably just glue the AC in.

Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:
2 Librarians in Power Armour with Force Axes, Epistolaries, with either Pyromancy or Telekinesis
2 Squads of 9 Sternguard Veterans, each with 2 combi-meltas and a Power Fist sarge, in Rhinos (with a librarian in each)
5 Sniper Scouts with Camo Cloaks (find points for Telion?)
2 Squads of 5 Tactical Marines in TL-Las Razorbacks
2 Stormtalons, stock AC/HB
5 Devastators with 4 Plasma Cannons
2 Vindicators (or 2 AC/HB Predators instead?)

I would bring only one librarian. Also most likely with a sword.
Then I would spread the sternguard into 3 rhinos, probably units of 5 with a good number combimeltas, maybe meltas and heavy flamers. This spreads the death, which is good as rhinos are weak. Also this amount of sternguard makes pedro kantor worth it(HQ special character)
Telion is well worth it.
I would make the tactical squads up to 10, the extra weapons and models are worth their points.
Stormtalons will be better with typhoon or the other missiles, so they can get to other flyers.
Dev. squads are expensive, given the extra tac. guys I would not bring the dev. squads but maybe spend points on an ADL with quadgun.
Vindicators are awesome, they will go well with the rhinos moving forward.

Sternguard are not the only answer.
However, you seem to have the right idea. Vanilla marines have awesome units like sternguard, vindicators so take multiple of them then bring troops that will support them and their game plan.

10man Squads of Tactical Marines is a must for Vanilla marines. Even if you still take a Razorback, you can combat squad the marines and still use them as transports.

Plasma Cannon Devs are to much extra points to be spending on Plasma Cannons. (100pts for 4 Cannons). You spend 5pts if you put them on the Tactical Squad.

I typically run my Devastators with Missiles, and my Tactical Squads w/ Plasma Cannons. You save 5ppm in that regard.

Stormtalons are run best with Typhoons or Lascannons. I believe the Stormtalons have one of the cheaper lascannons in the 'codex', and are a decent place to put them, considering they can skyfire.

Pyromancy is pretty garbage unless you are fighting Horde armies/GEQ armored armies, imo. If you are running a Librarian up close(like you would with a Sternguard Squad), a good option to use is a Psychic Shriek (telepathy) Libby, as Shriek gets you a decent amount of wounds on a squad. (on average, at least)

While Vindicators are buffed, they still have the disadvantage of requiring to get close (24") and being armor 11 on the sides. The Vanilla Marine codex's strength, especially if you are not running a Vulkan army, is in long ranged firepower. The Predators would probably be a better choice for someone who wants to play an Ultramarine army, since they can stay long distance.

However, if you are going to be running multiple squads of Sternguard Veterans, a good option is to run Vindicators for support. Especially if you are using Stormtalons to cover the sky.

A decent option for Sternguard may be, instead of Rhinos, take Gate of Infinity / Psychic Shriek (since you said they are running as Epistolarys) and to gate around the Librarian and his wrecking crew, rapid fire and shriek into something scary, then teleport to a new target next turn.

If you do shell out the points for Telion, do take an Aegis Line with an Icarus Lascannon. A BS 6 Precision Shot lascannon can only do good things if scary enemy characters are on the field, or even for just taking out Roaming Special Weapons, cheeky Librarians Teleporting around, etc. Besides, an Aegis Line is good cover for your Predators (if you choose to use them) or your Heavy Weapon tactical squads.

Another option to think about, especially when running Sternguard Squads, is to take Pedro Kantor. While losing the option to fail your Leadership tests intentionally sucks, Gaining Stubborn and Hold the Line! is good in High Sternguard armies.

Here's a List at 2000pts to try out (i made it up on the spot with little sleep, so...)



Now, this is only if he wants to stray from the Ultramarines 'theme'. Pedro Would make a decent Captain Agemmon w/o Terminator Armor.

I respect your friends style for not taking the Blood Angels kool aid like a lot of people who play their Codex marine colours have. (I've seen Aurora, Ultramarine, Imperial Fist, and a few others run as Blood Angels.)