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Has anyone looked into any fun that can be had using SotH to outflank SW units? Some idea's i've been mulling over-
-WG Terminators outflanking
-GH/BC squads
-TWC

The upside is that now SW players have some nice new options for outflank, with rerolls for sides from acute senses. The downside is that no assault from outflank is a limiting factor, and cuts that option from our king outflankers, wolf scouts.
So units like TWC or skyclaws/bloodclaws seem nice (especially a 20 blob of bloodclaws flanked in by a wolf priest), but no assault leaves them standing next to what they want to shred. This isn't so good for them, but it can force the opponent to react which can be beneficial, especially to a scary tough threat like TWC. But I feel these assault based units aren't worth the effort/points.
GH and WG term's are a different cake though. They can be melee threats as well as apply good shooting. GH can go for their backfield objectives, and being in their deployment zone grants points, bolter infantry, and can pack double plasma or melta. Wolf guard can pack a variety of combi's, stormbolters for a hail of shots, cyclone/AC/heavy flamer/s, a variety of good melee weapons, and a good ol' 2+/5++. Stormshield can be brought to the front to take AP2 fire. PA wolfguard can be taken for extra bodies behind the terminator wall wielding combiweapons for extra firepower.

Any thought's on this? My current unit in mind is-

WGBL w/ SoTH, SB
Cheap cheerful battle leader. Grant's outflank, +1 to cover save, stormbolter adds fire, I have enough power weapons i didn't feel the need to add one to him.
Wolf guard-
TDA/SS/PW(axe)
TDA/SB/C.fist
TDA/SB/PW(sword)
TDA/SB/cyclone/PW(sword)
TDA/SB/c.fist
PA/combiplasma
PA/combiplasma
PA/combiplasma
5 terminator bodies, 3 PA. SS/axe leads at the front, C.fists for anti-tank work, the combiplasma's stand behind the wall. 20 SB shots (2 at BS5) and 3/6 rapid fire plasma shots when they walk on from outflank. I'm thinking of tinkering with the combi's and maybe a melee weapon for the WGBL, but it's going to depend of course on what else is going in the army.

Well first, only Infantry can make use of Saga of the Hunter.
You will give the unit you are with Outflank and Stealth, but not “Behind Enemy Lines”, that is a Wolf Scout ability.
I am personally against Terminators in out flanking units [un-fluffy]. Otherwise the concept is sound.

I'd hate to see that in my backfield.

I am just going to add a WGBL with a Combi-Melta and Power Fiast to My Wolf Scouts. I am giving my scouts Bolt Guns, 2x Plasma Pistol and a Plasma Gun. I am also going to use one with MotW. I figure come out of reserves, find some cover and gust gun stuff down.

I am also planning on using a WGBL for my 2x Melta-Gun Grey hunters with either a WGBL with Saga of the Hunter or Redmaw.

I've been messing around with the same idea and even opened a similar thread. Some good ideas and replies found here. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/468833.page.

Anpu42 wrote:Well first, only Infantry can make use of Saga of the Hunter.
You will give the unit you are with Outflank and Stealth, but not “Behind Enemy Lines”, that is a Wolf Scout ability.
I am personally against Terminators in out flanking units [un-fluffy]. Otherwise the concept is sound.

Anpu bro! I know you weren't a fan of me telling you TL;DR on your wall of text Space wolf synergy thread!
I never said anything about behind enemy lines, so why are you bringing it up?
Also, Dedicated transports outflank with their unit according to my BRB., in ze description of outflank in ze special rules section.
Unless by only infantry you mean you cannot give a model with a jumppack, bike or TDA SotH. Yes- Yes I am capable of reading my codex, which you seem to imply I am not.
Speaking of the TL;DR- you mention in your wolf priest entry that you can outflank with SotH...but you don't mention what units you might want to do it with, the ups and downs of doing so, the actual value of the ability which is used in synergy with other units. Your space wolf synergy thread has ALOT of rules that SW players already know from their codex, and alot of mention of wargear (GH have krak grenades ?????), but not much actual synergy is being discussed. Its a good space wolf information thread, but there's no real synergy. So if your going to discuss the synergy between the HQ's that get SotH and units that you might want to outflank with that ability, please add to the discussion. If your going to go "well well well they don't have "Behind enemy lines"!" My response is "I didn't say they did, no one else said they did, so please toddle off and lets the adults talk", ok buddy ?

Jmac's your thread is the pebble that got this avalanche started btw my first idea was 2 outflanking GH squads, outflanking terms, scouts, and 2 10 man walking squads (TDA/SS/Power axe wolf guard at the front). Adding those points up made me go "ooohhhkay tone it down a bit"

Jihallah wrote:
Jmac's your thread is the pebble that got this avalanche started btw my first idea was 2 outflanking GH squads, outflanking terms, scouts, and 2 10 man walking squads (TDA/SS/Power axe wolf guard at the front). Adding those points up made me go "ooohhhkay tone it down a bit"

Right on man! Yeah it is a pretty awesome idea you got going on. What about an outflanking GH unit with attached TDA WG and 2 units of scouts OBEL with attached TDA WG. The way wound allocation works now allows for a lot of shenanigans between those units.

Yes, but it comes about points really. You've got to have another troop choice- so thats 150+ spent on GH, your probably going to a)drop pod b)rhino c)razorback or d) footslog and probably go another TDA wolfguard, so your looking at 35-75 extra points.
So you've already bought 3-4 TDA WG, your outflanking HQ+GH squad+toys, then 2x scout squads+toys... it adds up to a decent whack of points. Then you need to worry about your first turn/s footprint- you don't want to get tabled waiting for your entire army to arrive from outflank. You'd want to avoid the enemy from grouping up centre to avoid the outflankers, and moving midfield to get away from the scouts and try to dominate what you do have on the field and table you. And it seems hard to avoid that.

So I think that the way to do it would be TWC and 20+ more GH to run midfield, and try to get them to either cop the outflankers or avoid the outflank to run into TWC/GH. But I haven't run the points on that, and TBH it sounds expensive. And once you get at that point level, it stops being really viable since the other army will have enough points to probably sweep or cripple what you do have on the field.

Yeah, i may have got carried away but you could build a list around it.

Oh its natural. It was the EXACT same thought I had

Last list a whipped up had the above terminator units, plus-
RP (Psychic defense/offense)
2 10 man GH squads with TDA/SS/P.axe leaders
Two lasplasbacks with 5 GH in them
2 Autolas preds
2 typhoons
for 1500p
Outflanking terminators
foot GH push up to midfield/enemies deployment
mounted GH grab backfield objectives+support fire, can also travel with foot GH to get the plasma in range if needed
Autolas preds form a firebase
Typhoons form mobile firebase- Sit back and assist, and scoot up a flank if safe to score side armor shots, or generally move about in my backfield for better angles/shots

It's not fantastic, and I haven't really done much to fiddle with it, but its a start. I kind of want another unit to outflank, but my two options aren't tasty considering i need to drop units to fit it in 1500p. Wolf scouts would be nice for behind enemy lines, but are fragile and will die much quicker than the terminators will. GH are tougher, but don't come behind enemy lines and requires a HQ to outflank them. Neither option appeals too much to me.

Jihallah wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:I Said Stuff

Anpu bro! I know you weren't a fan of me telling you TL;DR on your wall of text Space wolf synergy thread!
I never said anything about behind enemy lines, so why are you bringing it up?
Also, Dedicated transports outflank with their unit according to my BRB., in ze description of outflank in ze special rules section.
Unless by only infantry you mean you cannot give a model with a jumppack, bike or TDA SotH. Yes- Yes I am capable of reading my codex, which you seem to imply I am not.
Speaking of the TL;DR- you mention in your wolf priest entry that you can outflank with SotH...but you don't mention what units you might want to do it with, the ups and downs of doing so, the actual value of the ability which is used in synergy with other units. Your space wolf synergy thread has ALOT of rules that SW players already know from their codex, and alot of mention of wargear (GH have krak grenades ?????), but not much actual synergy is being discussed. Its a good space wolf information thread, but there's no real synergy. So if your going to discuss the synergy between the HQ's that get SotH and units that you might want to outflank with that ability, please add to the discussion. If your going to go "well well well they don't have "Behind enemy lines"!" My response is "I didn't say they did, no one else said they did, so please toddle off and lets the adults talk", ok buddy ?

Jmac's your thread is the pebble that got this avalanche started btw my first idea was 2 outflanking GH squads, outflanking terms, scouts, and 2 10 man walking squads (TDA/SS/Power axe wolf guard at the front). Adding those points up made me go "ooohhhkay tone it down a bit"

I tossed in the Behind Enemy Lines for Completeness Sake.
As far as a lot of what you brought up I have been paying attention to, I have just been lazy about my updates. Hopefully by the end of the week I will back into doing some of my up dates. I am almost finding some thing new every time I read the book.

After rereading my 2nd edition Codex I might be reconsidering the Terminator/Grey Hunter/Blood Claw thing.

Jihallah wrote:
Also, Dedicated transports outflank with their unit according to my BRB., in ze description of outflank in ze special rules section.

Now that just gave me an idea for a 2000 pts list, putting a WGBL + some Wolfguard in my LR Redeemer and have them drive over the flank to say hello to anyone hiding in the back

Mostly likely the LR will get melta'd/lasered/etc. into oblivion pretty fast, but it will surely be a nice sight and one hell of a diversion

Anpu42 wrote:I tossed in the Behind Enemy Lines for Completeness Sake.
As far as a lot of what you brought up I have been paying attention to, I have just been lazy about my updates. Hopefully by the end of the week I will back into doing some of my up dates. I am almost finding some thing new every time I read the book.

After rereading my 2nd edition Codex I might be reconsidering the Terminator/Grey Hunter/Blood Claw thing.

You tossed in that the units I mentioned DIDN'T have a rule, that is unique to another well known unit in the codex. This was required for "Completeness Sake"?
This isn't about fluff. This is about tactics and things I can do with my army. This is the tactics forum. If you want to argue fluff, there is a forum for it. Go there, because this is the tactics forum where we wish to discuss tactics- not whether or not certain space wolves would outflank.
If your not going to add to this tactics discussion, I'll repeat what I said before- Please, toddle off, and let the adults ok buddy

Malthor wrote:Now that just gave me an idea for a 2000 pts list, putting a WGBL + some Wolfguard in my LR Redeemer and have them drive over the flank to say hello to anyone hiding in the back

Mostly likely the LR will get melta'd/lasered/etc. into oblivion pretty fast, but it will surely be a nice sight and one hell of a diversion

I reckon it could go well in a pod list...maybe?
Its probably going to arrive turns 2/3, so if you can put the enemy under alot of pressure in those turns when it pops out, I think it might have a chance to live and be a very valuable addition, but I haven't thought about it really. I lack the pods for a pod army
But I too worry about melta in the enemies deployment zone. The other way to get around this is- I as your opponent would keep melta weapons on the flanks of my army to counter the raider. Bringing it in midfield instead of their deployment zone could get around this melta counter, making your opponent spend 1/2/3 turns sitting units doing nothing on his flanks, because once your midfield next turn you can keep trundling for midfield objectives, or head towards the enemy army. So you would change to a godhammer or crusader LR for the range, hold it in reserve/outflank, and if possible crash into the enemies flank, but if they put a counter unit there go midfield to waste those units efforts and from the midfield you have options.

Actually now that I think about it, it sounds like a better option than i thought!

Well, with the droppods I am facing the same issue as you

I mentioned the Redeemer because it's the one LR I have( and also I love it )^^

Taking a Crusader could maybe mitigate the problem of backfield melta a bit, as part of my plan was(depending on what is back there) to get out of the LR and shoot the closest unit with combi plasma/2 assault cannons.

This should take care of most things lurking in the back. I would also play a big squad of TWC (4-5) , so this would give my opponent some difficult targeting decisions since both squads would require a lot of fire to take down, not to mention the LR which, despite the new hull points rules, will be a big nuisance if I can get rid of the closest meltas.
This is also part of why I would prefer the Redeemer for this, because he is far more dangerous in the backfield and would draw some fire away from the other squads so that they can get to work beating things up next turn.

Good idea with going midfield with the LR to have anti tank just sit around, with being able to go flatout in the shooting phase you can put yourself in a good position pretty easily to assault next turn and have a decent firebase somewhere if you take the godhammer/crusader.

Go with a wolf priest instead of a WGBL. You get preferred enemy, a 4+ invlun save, and a power weapon for free. Depending on the way the TO FAQs it, you can give your priest a power axe if you wish.

I have used this a few times with a GH squad to decent success. You don't really need a transport as your goal is to get a squad into the enemy deployment and apply stress to them.

Take a WG in termie armor so you can exploit the Wolf Standard, 2+ save with rerolls effect. Its makes your squad immune to ~97% of incoming normal save damage for one round of assault.

This is my normal loadout for 'The Outflankers'. It clocks in at 353 points, and the priest makes 'gets hot' a bit more manageable.
- Wolf Priest w/Runic Armor, Wolf Tail Talisman, Saga of the Hunter
- 10 man GH squad, w/2 PGs, Mark of Wolfen, Wolf Standard
- Wolf Guard in Terminator armor w/Power Axe

Totally agree on the priest. He just gives you so many good things for the cost. From a RAI standpoint, I'm pretty sure he has a Maul, but right now you can swap it out until they FAQ it.

labmouse42 wrote:Take a WG in termie armor so you can exploit the Wolf Standard, 2+ save with rerolls effect. Its makes your squad immune to ~97% of incoming normal save damage for one round of assault.

With the risk of sounding noob- how does this work? Can't models in B2B with the GH hit them instead of the terminator?
Wheres your rulebook when you need it eh >,<
\

Jihallah wrote:With the risk of sounding noob- how does this work? Can't models in B2B with the GH hit them instead of the terminator?

It's not noob to ask questions man -- 6th edition is still pretty damn new.

Allocating wounds in assault
Wounds are allocated and resolved starting witht e closest model, just like in the shooting phase. However, as you'll often have many models in base contact with the enemy, there will be many models tied for the privilege of dying first.
p25 BRB

If there is more than one eligible candidate, the player controlling the models being attacked chooses which model it is allocated to.
p25 BRB


Rerolling Failed Wounds
For the duration of the next Assault Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1.
p62 SW Codex


How this works out
If you know you are going to be assaulted, or wish to assault you pop the wolf standard. Move your wolf guard in terminator armor into B2B contact with at least one enemy model. When attacks are allocated to your squad, assign them all to the wolf guard. Any failed armor saves of a 1 can be re-rolled due to the wolf banner -- thus changing the chance of failure from 1/6 to 1/36. (2.77% of failure)

While you are 'per rules' supposed to roll the attacks one at a time, I will roll them in a batch of 6. If I failed one of them, then we randomize to see which one killed the wolf guard and apply the rest to the squad.


Example of this
6 bloodcrushers assault a squad of GH who wisely popped their banner on the shooting phase before the assault phase. On I4, the bloodcrushers have 24 STR 6, AP3 attacks at WS 5 (4 attacks of which are rending). Normally this would destroy the GH squad, as 16 bloodcrushers would hit, and 13.33 wounds would be inflicted killing with no armor save allowed.

In this case, however, the SW player assigns 13 wounds to the wolf guard, who gets his 2+ armor save. He fails 2 of them rolls, and picks up the dice and rerolls them. Statically you can expect him to make all the saves. One of the wounds was rending, and that wound is passed off to a GH who bravely dies for his brothers.

That is how a squad of GH can go from being wiped out to suffering 0 (or very limited) causalities by using a terminator armor WG and the wolf standard.


Counters
Challenge the WG with a character. Wounds cannot be allocated to him.

Take all of your models out of B2B contact with the WG. If he is no longer in B2B during your init swing, then he cannot have wounds allocated to him.

You had me at the rules for allocating wounds. Each GH squad will now have a mini Ajax leading them

Nice summary/explanation too