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So I recently came across The Last Church and found it to be one of the most interesting short stories in 40k. Basically, about the last church on Terra shortly before the Great Crusade begins. It expresses the militantly atheist and almost angsty mindset the Emperor has with religion, and makes him out to be fairly unlikable.

Most significant I think was this quote describing the Emperor from a clearly sympathetic character:



So this certainly paints a new picture of the Emperor. Ruthless ambition, arrogance, and a mindset of war/violence. It certainly goes against the stereotypical benevolent dictator who made everything perfect allegory we always get.

Well the guy did start a vast war to wipe out all non-human races in the galaxy. What kind of jerk do you have to be to even think about doing that?

He i always saw him as a guy who did what was right for man not men.

Old news. Most everyone that knows about the Emperor knows that he's just there to keep his species alive and at any cost.

Harriticus wrote:So I recently came across The Last Church and found it to be one of the most interesting short stories in 40k. Basically, about the last church on Terra shortly before the Great Crusade begins. It expresses the militantly atheist and almost angsty mindset the Emperor has with religion, and makes him out to be fairly unlikable.

Most significant I think was this quote describing the Emperor from a clearly sympathetic character:

Spoiler:

Uriah looked into the Emperor’s face as he spoke, now seeing past the glamours and the magnificence to the heart of an individual who had lived a thousand lives and walked the Earth for longer than could be imagined. He saw the ruthless ambition and the molten core of violence at the Emperor’s heart. In that instant, Uriah knew he wanted nothing to do with this man

So this certainly paints a new picture of the Emperor. Ruthless ambition, arrogance, and a mindset of war/violence. It certainly goes against the stereotypical benevolent dictator who made everything perfect allegory we always get.

You forgot to mention that the carriongod is not particularly smart. Even a first semester student would get whipped bloody by his professor if he
tries the emprah's simplicistic reasoning ( "politics has killed it's thousands, religion has killed millions"...yeah...truly Mr. Emprah, you are a smart one /o\ )

KingDeath wrote:You forgot to mention that the carriongod is not particularly smart. Even a first semester student would get whipped bloody by his professor if he
tries the emprah's simplicistic reasoning ( "politics has killed it's thousands, religion has killed millions"...yeah...truly Mr. Emprah, you are a smart one /o\ )

I was actually pretty disappointed that the priest character didn't have a counter-argument to this, given how easy it'd have been.

Still, a good story, quite enjoyable to read. And the ending, that very last sentence, gave me shivers.

KingDeath wrote:

Harriticus wrote:So I recently came across The Last Church and found it to be one of the most interesting short stories in 40k. Basically, about the last church on Terra shortly before the Great Crusade begins. It expresses the militantly atheist and almost angsty mindset the Emperor has with religion, and makes him out to be fairly unlikable.

Most significant I think was this quote describing the Emperor from a clearly sympathetic character:

Spoiler:

Uriah looked into the Emperor’s face as he spoke, now seeing past the glamours and the magnificence to the heart of an individual who had lived a thousand lives and walked the Earth for longer than could be imagined. He saw the ruthless ambition and the molten core of violence at the Emperor’s heart. In that instant, Uriah knew he wanted nothing to do with this man

So this certainly paints a new picture of the Emperor. Ruthless ambition, arrogance, and a mindset of war/violence. It certainly goes against the stereotypical benevolent dictator who made everything perfect allegory we always get.

You forgot to mention that the carriongod is not particularly smart. Even a first semester student would get whipped bloody by his professor if he
tries the emprah's simplicistic reasoning ( "politics has killed it's thousands, religion has killed millions"...yeah...truly Mr. Emprah, you are a smart one /o\ )

It's funny that you mention that, because when I read that I thought back to The Black Book of Communism and was thinking, 'wait, the communist regimes killed 94 million people in the 20th century alone, and they were mostly atheist regimes motivated by entirely political goals'

The Emperor only does what he does, because he feels that is right.

I think it's a very simplistic view, but it fits perfectly into the 40k universe that there can only be ONE belief, whether thats a form of religion or some form of science (keep in mind that knowledge of the warp is withheld from public knowledge) All other beliefs cannot be tolerated.

Jacobshepard wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

Harriticus wrote:So I recently came across The Last Church and found it to be one of the most interesting short stories in 40k. Basically, about the last church on Terra shortly before the Great Crusade begins. It expresses the militantly atheist and almost angsty mindset the Emperor has with religion, and makes him out to be fairly unlikable.

Most significant I think was this quote describing the Emperor from a clearly sympathetic character:

Spoiler:

Uriah looked into the Emperor’s face as he spoke, now seeing past the glamours and the magnificence to the heart of an individual who had lived a thousand lives and walked the Earth for longer than could be imagined. He saw the ruthless ambition and the molten core of violence at the Emperor’s heart. In that instant, Uriah knew he wanted nothing to do with this man

So this certainly paints a new picture of the Emperor. Ruthless ambition, arrogance, and a mindset of war/violence. It certainly goes against the stereotypical benevolent dictator who made everything perfect allegory we always get.

You forgot to mention that the carriongod is not particularly smart. Even a first semester student would get whipped bloody by his professor if he
tries the emprah's simplicistic reasoning ( "politics has killed it's thousands, religion has killed millions"...yeah...truly Mr. Emprah, you are a smart one /o\ )

It's funny that you mention that, because when I read that I thought back to The Black Book of Communism and was thinking, 'wait, the communist regimes killed 94 million people in the 20th century alone, and they were mostly atheist regimes motivated by entirely political goals'

The Emperor only does what he does, because he feels that is right.

I think it's a very simplistic view, but it fits perfectly into the 40k universe that there can only be ONE belief, whether thats a form of religion or some form of science (keep in mind that knowledge of the warp is withheld from public knowledge) All other beliefs cannot be tolerated.

Nah this analogy doesnt work in the 40k universe, as the big E knew that the various religeons are either feeding the chaos gods or getting in the way of his vision of humanity.

So if the Priest had said "Aha! but atheism has killed its fair share"
the Emp would go "mmkay, but they are not feeding super powerful beings of evil a constand stream of cookies"

Ultimately, the Emperor is human.

I'm not going to criticise the strength of the relative arguments either, as it was written by sci-fi author, rather than someone necessarily clued up in debates and politics, and I think he did a brilliant job.

What I found interesting was his view on the Inquisition.

The Emperor isn't just human. He's also the most powerful psyker that has currently arisen in the known history of humanity (his own and what we know.) HE may or may not be more (depending on how far back into fluff you want to go and how it is regarded). And despite is foresight he has no peers to turn to to share his burden with, noone to advise him, and noone to really trust. And there is no 're try' if he fails. Couple that with the likely past he had and its not too hard to understand how and why he thinks the way he does (even though lack of trust and penchant for keeping secrets is one of the key things that feths things up for the Imperium. It's easy to judge him in retrospect when we have all the knowledge he doesn't, though.)

The Emperor was the ultimate human, both prone to vast wisdom and an equally vast humano-centric view of the universe.

Formosa wrote:Nah this analogy doesnt work in the 40k universe, as the big E knew that the various religeons are either feeding the chaos gods or getting in the way of his vision of humanity.
So if the Priest had said "Aha! but atheism has killed its fair share"
the Emp would go "mmkay, but they are not feeding super powerful beings of evil a constand stream of cookies"

I'm just going to point out that religion has zero connection to the various Chaos gods or any other warp entity. They get their power from "related" thoughts and emotions, not from worship. In one way or another, all those thoughts and emotions exist in any society. Some cultures may aim to keep themselves in check concerning one such aspect or another, whereas others may deliberately promote them. This is independent from the form of government or religion and simply depends on the values that society stands for.

Formosa wrote:
Nah this analogy doesnt work in the 40k universe, as the big E knew that the various religeons are either feeding the chaos gods or getting in the way of his vision of humanity.

So if the Priest had said "Aha! but atheism has killed its fair share"
the Emp would go "mmkay, but they are not feeding super powerful beings of evil a constand stream of cookies"

WRONG WRONG WRONG!!! Teh chaos godz has wahffles, nawt dusty cookies!

Formosa wrote:
So if the Priest had said "Aha! but atheism has killed its fair share"
the Emp would go "mmkay, but they are not feeding super powerful beings of evil a constand stream of cookies"

Um- that makes no sense.

The Chaos Gods are fueled by human emotions, so it doesn't matter if you're religious or not. So as long as you feel pleasure, anger, possess a thirst for knowledge or pretty much any other thought//feeling, you're directly worshiping Chaos.

Do you think that the Chaos Gods weren't getting fat off of the Emperor's great crusade? Every time the Emperor took another living being's life in a battle, or thought up a war strategy or learned something new, he was directly showing fealty to a Chaos God. One of the great ironies of the 40K universe.

AegisGrimm wrote:The Emperor was the ultimate human, both prone to vast wisdom and an equally vast humano-centric view of the universe.

But the Emprah, as depicted by the avaiable material, isn't wise. He makes severe mistakes at every possible opportunity which, at the end, cause half of the Imperium to rebell against him.

It's a great read and one of the better stories in the Tales of Heresy.

One gripe I had, the Emperors last words to the Thunder Warriors. Conquering the galaxy isn't something you do for the benefit of mankind, I thought his tagline was unite the galaxy

I personally like to think, that the Emperor’s disapproval of religion stems from whatever religious strife he may have been witness to. Experience of such events as Timur the lame plundering the east, the crusades and the creation of the Spanish inquisition, are all events that is bound to leave an ashen taste in your mouth.

Maybe he is bitter over that fact, that people have been wasting their own and others life over the worship of some unproven magic sky god, with the absurd promise of an afterlife.

Politics is a tool that can be used to improve the conditions of a community, nation or even the human race as a whole. Religion however benefits nobody, and I think that is the reason why the Emperor is so critical of it.

Well, even as an atheist I have to admit that religion can benefit people by providing spiritual stability. The human mind seems quite malleable and, by its very nature, longs for things like the existence of an imaginative all-powerful deity that might help you through your troubles. Or a nice and cozy afterlife, because we loathe the idea that we'll simply cease to exist and turn into dust. And then there's the whole "being a part" feeling that comes with participation in the religious community or even active promotion of some great cause. The latter occasionally carries over into politics, too, which is when the line between state and religion gets blurred (like personality cults forming around state leaders).

There's not a lot of difference between politics and religion - both can be used for good and for bad. My personal opinion is merely that religion is more manipulative and thus more dangerous since it attempts to subject the individual to some "divine right" of whatever church he belongs to, whereas in politics the supreme leader is usually still presented as a mere human, however hyped by the media, thus making it easier to consider objection to existing policies.

Of course, one might argue that an indoctrination focusing on a "divine right" might provide even more stability than purely political indoctrination, as is lessens the chance of dissension. To get back to 40k, this is precisely the reason why the Adeptus Ministorum was a necessary evil to keep the IoM together after Emps was dead. Irony, huh?

Noisy_Marine wrote:Well the guy did start a vast war to wipe out all non-human races in the galaxy. What kind of jerk do you have to be to even think about doing that?

A jerk that cares about the survival of humanity above all else. If I was in his shoes I would have exterminated every other sapient species, even if only as a long term goal (eg. ally with them and when all major threats are eliminate, wipe them out).

Sounds all well and good- until those other sentient races realize that you're a threat and decide to wipe you out first.

Thus, the flaw in the Emperor's plan. You can't just exterminate other races, they tend to fight back.

The Emperor's plan for humanity's dominance of the galaxy has been flanderized, both by the fans and the less-knowledgable authors of the fiction. It wasn't "kill everything that isn't human". It was "kill everything that's a threat to humans".

There's a substantial difference.

BlaxicanX wrote:Sounds all well and good- until those other sentient races realize that you're a threat and decide to wipe you out first.

Thus, the flaw in the Emperor's plan. You can't just exterminate other races, they tend to fight back.

Humanity was the second most numerous species (possibly third now due to the Tyranids) and had the support of the Adeptus Astartes and Primarchs. Honestly the Emperor had little to fear except (apparently) humanity turning on itself. The only species that could have defeated humanity were the Orks who could never unite.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarknessEternal wrote:The Emperor's plan for humanity's dominance of the galaxy has been flanderized, both by the fans and the less-knowledgable authors of the fiction. It wasn't "kill everything that isn't human". It was "kill everything that's a threat to humans".

There's a substantial difference.

Technically every non-human sapient species would be a long-term threat to humanity. Although, since the emperor is immortal he could always crush any allied or subjugated species if they ever got too powerful and prevent humanity from getting too soft. Still his doctrine would have required that every species at the very least be heavily controlled. Also, the flanderization is in part due to the lack of him accepting any non-human or non-abhuman into the Imperium.

@OP This story made me like The Emperor more actually. Of course some people will like The Emperor more or less after reading it depending on their own world view but it was a good read nonetheless.

DarknessEternal wrote:The Emperor's plan for humanity's dominance of the galaxy has been flanderized, both by the fans and the less-knowledgable authors of the fiction. It wasn't "kill everything that isn't human". It was "kill everything that's a threat to humans".

There's a substantial difference.

Do you know of any races humanity encountered during the Great Crusade that weren't purged and their planets settled?

Me neither.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:@OP This story made me like The Emperor more actually. Of course some people will like The Emperor more or less after reading it depending on their own world view but it was a good read nonetheless.

For me the problem with the shortstory has little to do with one's worldview but more with the rather weak argumentation used by the carriongod.

KingDeath wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:@OP This story made me like The Emperor more actually. Of course some people will like The Emperor more or less after reading it depending on their own world view but it was a good read nonetheless.

For me the problem with the shortstory has little to do with one's worldview but more with the rather weak argumentation used by the carriongod.

Such as?

Harriticus wrote:
Do you know of any races humanity encountered during the Great Crusade that weren't purged and their planets settled?

Eldar.
Orks.

You said purged; Orks were only the victims of attempted purges. Eldar weren't even that.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Harriticus wrote:
Do you know of any races humanity encountered during the Great Crusade that weren't purged and their planets settled?

Eldar.
Orks.

You said purged; Orks were only the victims of attempted purges. Eldar weren't even that.

Eldar were a dead race not inhabiting significant regions of space. they were regularly fought against in the Great Crusade.

Orks are impossible to wipe out.

If the Imperium encountered an alien civilization on planet A during the Great Crusade, Planet A was purged of said civilization then settled with humans. That's what the Great Crusade was all about after reuniting lost worlds. Eldar/Orks weren't tolerated or ignored, they were the subject of much fighting but for one reason or another the Imperium couldn't wipe them out.

Harriticus wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Harriticus wrote:
Do you know of any races humanity encountered during the Great Crusade that weren't purged and their planets settled?

Eldar.
Orks.

You said purged; Orks were only the victims of attempted purges. Eldar weren't even that.

Eldar were a dead race not inhabiting significant regions of space. they were regularly fought against in the Great Crusade.

Orks are impossible to wipe out.

If the Imperium encountered an alien civilization on planet A during the Great Crusade, Planet A was purged of said civilization then settled with humans. That's what the Great Crusade was all about after reuniting lost worlds. Eldar/Orks weren't tolerated or ignored, they were the subject of much fighting but for one reason or another the Imperium couldn't wipe them out.

Exactly. They would if they could but those aliens are shifty/numberless.

If the Imperial Webway was completed, the Eldar would be dead and gone.