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I was at the Golden Throne GT and the ruling was that for ruins it was the 4 + that the BRB says. However, if you got behind the ruins and could seee the models on the ground or 2nd floor from BEHIND this was considered area terrain and thus was 5 + cover. I played a game today where this was questioned and I wasnt able to find anything aside from the 4 + in ruins cover save. Is there any documentation on where the model has to be in relation to the shooter when in or exposed in ruins?

No rule supports the 5+ idea. if a model is in a ruin, its a 4+ save, even if it is an area terrain piece.

GT did make some FAQ rulings that are still waiting for final answers. (such as how EW and FNP interact, etc) Early rules release compared to their competition so they made their own ruling reguarding the matter.

For the most part, it is best to discuss with your opponent what terrain pieces grant what kinds of cover, so there is no confusion and go forward that way.

P. 98 tells what cover saves ruins provide:

If the ruin blocks at least 25% of the target model, you get a 4+ cover save.

If the ruin is on a base, the base counts as area terrain and gives a 5+ cover save.

The upper levels of a ruin are not area terrain. Likewise, if the ruin does not have a base, the ground floor is open terrain.

Hmm. looks like this one needs better explanations as well. Warbrucey is right possibly, though area terrain seems to be for the purposes of having to roll move through cover (as its explaining debris etc.

for now it does seem its 5+

A Ruin is not Area Terrain

The BASE of a ruin IS area terrain - if it has one - and is thus 5+, unless covered 25% by the ground floor ruins in which case it is 4+

No rules support at all for the upper floors ever giving a 5+ save

First sentence in the rules for Ruins:

All ruins are difficult terrain and provide a 4+ cover save.

So it is always difficult terrain - with a base or without.

I dont disagree Warbrucey - or was that directed elsewhere?

Directed @Paitryn, slow fingers are slow...

So if you are in a ruin up on ground or 2nd floor you always get 4+? I understand the 5+ for the base but is the base + ruin still 4+ on the ground if you are shootin the model from behind the ruin?

You only get the 4+ if you are 25% concealed. only area terrain gives you cover just by being inside it. Ruins are LoS terrain and so revert to the 25% rule.

Grey Templar wrote:You only get the 4+ if you are 25% concealed. only area terrain gives you cover just by being inside it. Ruins are LoS terrain and so revert to the 25% rule.

...apart the base, if it has one, which is area terrain

Warbrucey wrote:Directed @Paitryn, slow fingers are slow...

i never disagreed with that part. only the part that granted a 5+ instead of a 4+ as for the explanation about the base it only refers to area terrain for the purposes of moving through cover and makes no mention of the save changing. also, it never mentions LOS negating the save. if your in the ruin you get a 4+ save.

Area terrain gives a save even if LOS isn't obscured, normal terrain requires the 25% obscurement. As Ruins are not Area Terrain, you only get the 4+ if the ruin is physically in the way.

Paitryn wrote:

Warbrucey wrote:Directed @Paitryn, slow fingers are slow...

i never disagreed with that part. only the part that granted a 5+ instead of a 4+ as for the explanation about the base it only refers to area terrain for the purposes of moving through cover and makes no mention of the save changing. also, it never mentions LOS negating the save. if your in the ruin you get a 4+ save.

No.

1) area terrain gives a 5+ save , unless specified otherwise. Thus if you are ina ruin on the base only, and are not obscured by the ruin itself, you get a 5+ save.

2). Ruins only grant a 4+ save if you are 25% or more obscured. Just being in the ruin is not a sufficient condition to grant a 4+save

There's a reason for the 5+, it's because all units going to ground in area terrain now ad +2 instead of +1 to their save. So if it was 4+ are terrain you'd be getting a 2+ save without having stealth and that's a bit much IMO.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Paitryn wrote:

Warbrucey wrote:Directed @Paitryn, slow fingers are slow...

i never disagreed with that part. only the part that granted a 5+ instead of a 4+ as for the explanation about the base it only refers to area terrain for the purposes of moving through cover and makes no mention of the save changing. also, it never mentions LOS negating the save. if your in the ruin you get a 4+ save.

No.

1) area terrain gives a 5+ save , unless specified otherwise. Thus if you are ina ruin on the base only, and are not obscured by the ruin itself, you get a 5+ save.

2). Ruins only grant a 4+ save if you are 25% or more obscured. Just being in the ruin is not a sufficient condition to grant a 4+save

I do stand corrected. however its still going to come down to how players agree. I can see this one being more problems than its worth.

needless to say im staying my happy butt out of them now. too many units are capable of getting behind a ruin and removing your cover save altogether.

I for one love this change as it always baffled me how a guys standing on top of a building that is 90% intact had a 50% chance to shield themselves fro ma blast that was landing directly on top of them from barrage ><

Just sad they didn't apply the same logic to craters.

Crablezworth wrote:There's a reason for the 5+, it's because all units going to ground in area terrain now ad +2 instead of +1 to their save. So if it was 4+ are terrain you'd be getting a 2+ save without having stealth and that's a bit much IMO.

Huh?

P18 BRB "Models in a unit that has gone to ground immediately receive +1 to their cover saving throws." Area Terrain is 5+ so cover would only be 4+ if going to ground.

Crablezworth wrote:There's a reason for the 5+, it's because all units going to ground in area terrain now ad +2 instead of +1 to their save. So if it was 4+ are terrain you'd be getting a 2+ save without having stealth and that's a bit much IMO.

what? are you only using defense lines or something? better check on that.

Pretty sure area terrain adds +2 to cover saves if GTG.

There are a number of important, although subtle changes to area terrain in 6th edition:


1) You get +2 cover save for going to ground in area terrain, as opposed to the +1 behind other types of terrain (pg 91).


2) Ruins are no longer listed as being area terrain (pg 98),. The base of a ruin is area terrain (and therefore is a 5+ cover save), but the actual ruin walls that provide the 4+ save are not area terrain and therefore if the guys are up on the upper floors of a ruin but being shot from behind they are not getting any cover save at all if they're not actually obscured by the ruin walls. This is reinforced by the FAQ for SM Codex Techmarine's Bolster Defenses which now specifies that there are two types of cover saves models can get from a ruin.


3) By default, area terrain no longer automatically gives a cover save to models simply on the other side of it. This benefit is now ONLY listed for forests (pg 102). This means, if you have some area terrain that isn't a forest, say a bunch of rocks mounted on a base together, just firing 'through' that area terrain to models beyond (who aren't actually in the area terrain) does not automatically grant a cover save for firing through the terrain. The models would actually have to be 25% obscured by the rocks themselves on the base in order to get cover from that area terrain.

The only exception that is a forest, which is the only type of area terrain that specifies that it grants a cover save to units that are behind the terrain when the firer's line of sight passes through the forest.